One point that was raised by several people in the discussion about Ikoria was that Magic's aesthetics have largely moved away from the original 'fantasy-punk' elements in favour of more derivative or conventional ones. A great example of a more oldschool approach to worldbuilding in Magic is Rath, which, as we all know, got overlaid onto Dominaria during the Phyrexian Invasion. I've been wanting to make a thread about this anyway, and since it kinda came up recently, this seems like the right time to tackle it. So to get to the meat of the topic: Which elements of Rath (if any) would you like to see pop up in future visits to Dominaria? How would you implement them? I'd say feel free to digress a little bit and discuss the old fantasy-punk aesthetics in general if you feel like it.

What makes the Rathi elements different from my other threads about returning to various regions of Dominaria is of course that the Rathi overlay happened more or less all over the place, which means that some of the Rathi influences on Dominaria might be concentrated in particular areas, while others could be sprinkled throughout the plane. The only continent confirmed to not have been directly attacked by Phyrexians is Otaria, and given the centuries that have passed since, who's to say who or what might have ended up there eventually. Like in previous threads, I'll first try to compile what we know about the topic and what we have seen in Dominaria as well as in Time Spiral block.

Dominaria



Time Spiral block



I'm not going through the Rath sets or Invasion block or more stuff from the books now, though, but at the end of the day, WotC would be pretty much free to bring back anything they wanted from Rath anyway. Dominaria and Time Spiral block are simply the latest glimpses we got of Dominaria and seemed the most relevant.


I'll wait with my own two cents on the topic for now and am curious to see what you guys think.



Fake edit: Hang on, there's one thing I've been wanting to get out of my system for a while now: Could it be that the Aerathi Berserkers were the ancestors of the Dal that were transported to Rath? They both tend to be on the skimpily clad and well-muscled side, they tend to have red hair, and they like plaits and really long beards. It's almost too good to not be canon...

One element that I recall really hooking me in from the start of collecting Magic were the Dauthi because they're so damn visually arresting. And by extension, the weirdness surrounding them and the Soltari and Thalakos.
That said, The Thalakos are nothing, but I'd be fascinated to see the Soltari and Dauthi return.

Anywhere really.

FOIT ME! The Thalakos are awesome...

The Thalakos entire schtick was they lost all their mind!
They have nothing to their name!

Sure, but Thalakos from other planes or in other timelines need not be insane, and I find the Thalakos, particularly Thalakos Dreamsower, more visually interesting than either the Soltari or the Dauthi, in my opinion.

Plus, I have a Thalakos in the M:EM, so I have a vested interest...

I suppose a real time comparison can be seen with the guilds of Ravnica. In the original trilogy for example the Izzet and Rakdos look a lot more ugly while now they're more elegant and attractive.

I would definitely bring back the three shadow races as well in some shape or form (and the Shadow mechanic itself, ideally), though I have to admit that I like the Dauthi and Soltari much better than the Thalakos. In fact, there's hardly a thing about Rath that I wouldn't be happy to see on Dominaria, so as long as the execution is decent, I shouldn't be too hard to please on that front.

Having said that, Flowstone would probably be my number one incluson, partly because it's a really iconic part of Rath, partly because it should be pretty easy to implement in various ways. Heck, Flowstone Giant was among the first three Magic cards I ever owned, several years before I actually got into the game (or was even old enough to do so, for that matter). Now, Flowstone has the " : +N/-N" abilty attached to it, and IIRC, Maro said that red doesn't get that abilty anymore, but honestly, I'm sick and tired of the useless constraints they keep making up for their card design and that end up being at odds with flavour. Card design as a whole has come a long way and I'm really grateful for that, but there are certain things that will forever rub me the wrong way. I want my Flowstone, I want my original Slivers, I want my Regeneration, and I want my Flanking... (Speaking of Slivers and Flowstone, I'm genuinely shocked that we never got a Flowstone Sliver that gives that ability to all Slivers.) A small dose of Flowstone would probably be enough to make me happy, and it could mostly be in art, flavour text and story, but two or three cards that deal with it mechanically shouldn't be asking too much. Could be a creature, an equipment and an aura, something like that. I just love the flavour of that stuff. It would actually be cool to see a new legendary character who is adept at controlling Flowstone like the Evincars of old.

I think one thing that's really handy about the Rathi elements is that you could use them to fill some gaps in Dominaria's worldbuilding, that is, drop them in regions that don't have much else going on. The Kor Haven in the Balduvian Steppe is a great example of that. It adds a new thing to New Argive that gives it some more depth and identity, and I really could imagine a loose alliance of sorts between the kor and the rest of New Argive. Sure, there probably is enough material about New Argive to work with anyway, but the Balduvian Steppe would be a pretty blank spot otherwise. Have the en-kor roam the steppe and fight off Slivers, orcs, goblins, something like that. Their mounted lancers look like they'd be perfectly suited for the job. So yes, it would be awesome to see some kor as well, especially as a contrast to those on Zendikar.

Speaking of kor, I'd love to see the and il-kor as well, especially in Urborg where they ended up after the overlay. Now that Belzenlok is gone and the Cabal aren't as powerful there anymore, we could see a bit more diversity in Urborg, not just Cabalists and fat little swamp spirits (in fairness, the panther warriors are awesome, too).

One aspect I'd also consider is the fact that most things on Rath originally came from Dominaria in the first place. Take Skyshroud for instance. Yeah, it's gone now, but we know it started out as a floating forest in one of Dominaria's oceans, so who's to say there aren't others like it still out there somewhere? I guess they've set up the edges of Yavimaya as Dominaria's trademark aquatic forest, and that's cool, but it would be a great easter egg if they simply showed a floating forest in the background on a piece of land art.

The Dominarian origin of the Soltari is also alluded to in Bloodlines (another shout out to Squirle's blog for pointing that out). It comes up when Urza encounters Lyna of the Soltari on Rath. I grabbed my copy of the book to look it up, and it says that Soltari was the name of a small city-state that "mysteriously disappeared back in the days when he and Xantcha had worked to free Efuan Pincar from the Phyrexians" (that's in chapter 25 of the book, or p. 743 in the omnibus edition). I think it's safe to assume said city-state must have been somewhere in Gulmany then, or Urza probably wouldn't have heard about it disappearing. What is interesting about this is that it might allow us to trace the origin of the other shadow races as well. The Duelist had some information about them (reposted here: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/twitch-log ... rt-stories and here: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/twitch-log ... rt-stories). It used to be freely accessible, but the link is kinda blocking people that aren't signed in now, and I couldn't find it again by searching the site or using the Wayback Machine either. But I remember the Soltari being at war with the Dauthi before they were both taken to Rath, which is alluded to in the flavour text of Soltari Crusader. I also remember the Thalakos being caught in the middle, though I can't 100% confirm whether that was the case before they came to Rath. It probably was, though. The article also says (and you can check with Squirle to confirm: http://multiverseinreview.blogspot.com/ ... mpest.html) that Shadow Rider is one of the Dauthi who were still on Dominaria! What I'm getting at is, all three races probably came from Gulmany originally, and at least some of the Dauthi remained there. There is even a creepy adviser named Digody in Dark Legacy whose race nobody can identify. He looks kinda human, but very pale and skeletal thin, with a hatchet-thin face and red eyes that sometimes glow. I like to believe that guy has a Dauthi somewhere in his family tree, considering that novel is set in the part of Terisiare that later became Gulmany...

I'll leave it at that for now, but the bottom line is, it might be cool to see some remnants of the Rathi stuff from the time before it even ended up on Rath. I realise that the shadow races are probably way more interesting in their post-Rath incarnation, and you kinda have to avoid redundant doublings of pre- and post-Rath elements. But maybe they could mention it in anther podcast or on a piece of flavour text. On the other hand, if they decided to complelety take away their shadow properties (and, by extension, the Shadow mechanic, which would be a shame), they might as well have them return to their ancient homeland and rebuild their old settlements or join their long lost relatives. Gulmany looks like one of those places that could do with some filler material as well...

You know, I wonder if the original plan for Dominaria actually involved the Predator somehow, considering it's in the key art for the set (in the background behind Karn, Teferi and Jhoira) and on Windgrace Acolyte. Maybe it was supposed to be rebuilt by the Cabal, which doesn't sound so absurd when you consider the Weatherlight was back too. I still can't decide whether it would be cool to see the Predator come back in a future set, or whether it would be just kinda tacky. Then again, there are various corners of Dominaria that have (or used to have) more low-key kinds of airships, e.g. the Kipamu League, southern Jamuraa, the Talas, even Benalia. They might as well throw some more airship action into the mix now that Vehicles are a thing...


Also, what do you all think about the Shadow mechanic? Would you like to see it come back, or would you prefer the Mending to have fixed it and just bring the Dauthi, Soltari and Thalakos back without it? I'd love to see Shadow return, but maybe in a way that allows for slightly more interaction in combat. I think they got it right in Time Spiral block when they included cards like Aetherflame Wall, Aether Web, Spirit en-Dal and Trespasser il-Vec. If the Shadow creatures are still around, one explanation why we didn't see them anywere near the Stronghold in Dominaria could be that the Cabal drove them away with dementia magic. When you're fighting people you can't harm physically, assaulting their mind sounds like a great plan.

I get that I've probably exhausted people's interest in this topic by now, but there's one more thing that I wanted to bring up, and it's something that has lead to animated discussions in the past (might also be tangentially related to the geography thread I made): Where the heck did the kor on Rath originally come from?

In a nutshell, older material like the Duelist or the artbook about Rath suggested that all the peoples and creatures on Rath that roamed the plane freely were sucked from Dominaria into Rath by accident when the planes touched occasionally. This didn't necessarily include ctreatures like the Slivers or individuals like the Evincars that were brought to Rath through planar portals made by the Phyrexians.

However, around the time when original Zendikar came out, Doug stated that Zendikar was the original home plane of the kor on Rath. Naturally, that lead to discussions (that I didn't take part in because I simply didn't know the facts well enough to have an opinion).

While this confusion is unfortunate (and would have been avoidable), I now have a take on the subject that I don't remember hearing from anyone else back in the day (and I apologise if I missed it). What if both statements were true somehow? What if the Rathi kor were transported there from Dominaria like the old sources suggest they were, but the origin of their race was actually on Zendikar and they had previously ended up on Dominaria by unknown means? It wouldn't be the first time armies got left behind after a planeswalker battle, and not the first time peoples from different planes came to Dominaria through planar portals and settled there (e.g. the aven or the Suq'Ata). The kor that ended up settling on Dominaria could have been a relatively small group in one particular area (which makes sense if they didn't originate on Dominaria), and that in turn could mean all of them were whisked away to Rath. At least that would explain why we never saw them on Dominaria before they came back during the Rathi overlay. It would also help us avoid the redundancy of having both pre- and post-Rathi kor live on Dominaria in the present day.

I generally just hate the concept that the kor only have a singular origin point, and particularly dislike that Zendikar would be it.
We've seen Vedalken across many worlds, are we to suggest they too share a common ancestor?
That's my problem, the sin of convenience.

Oh, I absolutely agree. But if I had to pick my poison, I'd rather live with a blatant convenience that allows us to wiggle our way out of a seeming contradiction than accept the contradiction as a retcon on top of the convenience. At the end of the day, I would be surprised if it actually ever mattered again, but Doug said what he said, and we have to make sense of it somehow. That said, I'll set something on fire if we get a story about modern day kor on Dominaria and they actually mention anything about Zendikar...

Here's where I stand on the matter:
Doug gave his opinion. This is not fact.
It is not in the texts anywhere, it was done on tumblr.*
The fact that the information is not discrete and apparent, much less displayed in an official work means it can and probably should be discarded.

There's such a thing as death of the author and if it isn't in the text, no matter how nebulous that counts in a format such as this, it doesn't matter.

* Admittedly, I may be mistaking that, but that's quite frankly aside the point I'm making.

I very much want it to not matter and simply be discarded. I just have a feeling that Doug's statement is probably more widely known than the older sources and that there are probably a lot of people who are taking the Zendikar connection as gospel. If Doug personally came out tomorrow and simply took back what he said, I'd be the first person to applaud him. But I think they probably know they have nothing to gain from ever bringing it up again, so I guess it's not a pressing issue.

Heck, when you think about it, it's actually ridiculous how many of Doug's statements have been invalidated over the years, so there's a good chance we won't have to deal with the Zendikar thing going forward. Doug wrote the novel that established accelerated aging after the Mending, he wrote the article that claimed the Meditation Plane from the novels was the same as Bolas's Meditation Realm, he told us Ugin was from Tarkir and that no other planeswalkers went there between Fate Reforged and Dragons of Tarkir (which I believe has been contradicted by Core Set 19..?), stuff like that.

Which is precisely why you CAN discard it.
Brady tried to keep this sort of thing in check. It was what he referred to as "phantom canon" which can cause problems. Like when Elspeth was meant to be an oldwalker.
Beyond that, I don't think you have to worry much about how widespread the knowledge is. Consider how old Zendikar is as a set, how many people have stopped playing since then, how many people have started playing since then, and how many of either group had that much exposure/interest in the story during that time frame.


Or the fact Ugin was an Elder, then wasn't, then was Bolas's twin.
Listen I don't want to be mean about Doug, I genuinely don't, but he's not the most reliable narrator and the very nature of what they work on is basically stapled together as they go. See also: Ugin yet again.

I think it's more the nature of how the story is currently being made rather than Doug being an unreliable narrator. Ugin and Bolas being brothers (as far as I can tell) is entirely a Kate Elliot creation. When WotC moved from an inhouse story team to separating Creative into a Worldbuilding team and a Franchise team that hires outside authors, creative control was ceded to said authors in the name of better story telling (with varying results). In the Django interview that Barinellos posted in the other thread, Wexler talks about how the creative process is less "this is the story we want you to tell" and more "here's the major plot beats, hit those and go nuts with the rest". It's why Ugin and Bolas are brothers. It's why Dack Fayden showed up in WAR only to die. While I understand the necessity to give authors breathing room to create their stories, it also often makes it frustrating as a consumer to follow these stories when the Worldbuilding Team and the Franchise Team aren't on the same page. For example, the creative team should have never allowed Weisman to use Dack Fayden as cannon fodder. He wasn't in the set and was only added to die because Creative had no plans for him. Gideon's plot threads should have been tied up prior to or in War of the Spark so his death felt "better" for lack of a better term.

Quick side question, were the authors of the old novel line (Lebow, Mcgough, et al) WotC employees or were they outside authors like Wexler and Eliot?

I think there might have been some legal issues with IDW that made him hard to use.
Don't quote me on that though.

Outside writers, but they seemingly had a tighter relationship with the creative team than currently.
In that there was more communication about directions and integration of ideas.

I won't quote you, but that would make sense. It doesn't change the fact that adding a dark horse favorite planeswalker to a story in the eleventh hour because your outside author, who already has to juggle WAY TOO MANY characters, decided we needed to kill another character, thereby angering fans of said dark horse for the disconnect between the set and story (and the frustrating way it happened), AND underming the character death of what should be the emotional core of your story is...questionable at best (seriously, if you want to sell us on Gideon's heroic sacrifice, more people should be upset about him dying than Dack).




That's interesting. I started around Mirrodin/Kamigawa so missed the boat on the Weatherlight story, but you would think that authors would have more free reign to create their stories when the story was less integrated with the card sets. While The Sundered Bond was very well written (seriously go read it if you haven't), I really can't get over how close it is to the story we get on the cards while being...off. It's like looking at movie Spiderman and comic Spiderman (the same basic outline is there but the details are different), and telling us they are the same character. Like, technically yes, but actually no.

The problem is, Gideon dying wasn't even remotely shocking. We'd had a little over a year of "so they're setting him up to bite it" with Gideon. Most people probably wouldn't even have named Dack as a character they expected to see, much less die.
Let's not forget he died in the trailer too.
Honestly, I still think a problem with the set is that not enough walkers we knew about died. Not that I'd advocate going all Game of Thrones on the cast, but there were a ton of 1 and done walkers like Huatli or Arlinn that could have died. Characters with too narrow a focus to use effectively anywhere else.


Not so, because while they had a LOT of freedom to do as they please (especially King) they also had a more structured base to work from. Not just story spotlights they had to fit in. There was a lot more care to make sure characters were consistent rather than just hit the events that had to happen.

It just seems like they care about story points more than consistent characterization. More about what they are and what they do tan WHO they are and why they do what they do.

My problem with Gideon's death isn't that it was "shocking" (because, like you said, he had all the death flags), it's that it resolved his arc very poorly. Letting your character racked with survivor's guilt and a martyr complex find "redemption" in killing themselves is...eugh. It doesn't help that Weisman had a poor understanding of Gideon's character.



People wouldn't have named Dack as a character they expected to see, because he wasn't a character that was originally part of the story. He did not get involved with the plot until Weisman got his hands on the story. That's my ultimate problem with Dack's death: someone unfamiliar with the IP had enough influence to kill off a character in said IP for...shock value? If Dack had been involved with the story from the beginning and died, that would be one thing. But I don't personally think that these outside writers should have that kind of influence on the story (ymmv. I'm not saying that they can't add their own personal touches to the story, but there should be limits. For example, Wexler expanded Jirinia's role in Sundered Bond and it worked really well, imo.)


Again, ymmv, but gone are the days of Invasion and Time Spiral where we wipe the slate clean and start anew. We have a brand to build now and you don't do that by killing off potential revenue streams just because you haven't found a place for them yet. Plus, in fairness, we had more 'walkers die combined in this one set than we have had since the Mending (Venser, Xenagos, Elspeth vs Gideon, Dack, Domri, Dovin).



Another victim of an ever changing publishing format. Say what you will about the Gatewatch era, but it was fairly consistent when there were five or so writers handling the characters. These characters might not be consistent with their pre-Origins characterizations and they certainly weren't consistent when outside authors came in, but I guess that's what happens when you don't have character bibles.

Of course, ymmv, but I think it's not just a trend of publication, but of entertainment at large to mistake characteristics for characterization. Getting in to that What rather than Who.
But I don't really want to start an argument about that, it's just a masty prevalence I feel is present.