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Vorthos Cube
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Author:  Yxoque [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:26 am ]
Post subject:  Vorthos Cube
I like Cubes, but I'll never build one because I've got no-one near me to share it with. This thread is an opportunity to tickle my cube-building needs and discuss awesome cards.

Some rules/guidelines:

  • You can suggest any card, but it needs to be clear why you think it's a cool Vorthos card. This can be art, flavortext, overal concept or the way it fits in its particular set or block, or something else entirely.
  • I'd like the cube to be somewhat functional and balanced, so eventually we'll have to consider things like draft archetypes.
  • I have a personal preference for cubes that follow actual set design (101 commons, 60 Uncommons, 50 Rares, 15 Mythics) and I think it might force us to think about cards we might not think of otherwise. (It's easy to just pick a ton of rares, for example.)
  • I don't have a problem with rarity-shifting cards if need be.
  • If it's cool with everyone, I'd like to put 10 rare lands in the uncommon slots, because I think rare lands that fix your mana are stupid.
  • I'll keep a list of cards in the OP.

I'll start us off by suggesting the first card. I was originally going to suggest Ethercaste Knight (obviously), but that probably sets up a draft archetype very early on, so I'm gonna go with Cloistered Youth. It's a good example of the power of double-faced cards in how they can tell a story contained in just one card. It also drives the theme of horror that permeates Innistrad and the fact that you, the player, are responsible for this terrible transformation just makes the whole thing more horrific.

Commons (X/101)
White

Blue

Black

Red

Green

Multicolored and hybrid

Colorless, artifacts and lands


Uncommons (X/60)
White

Blue

Black

Red

Green

Multicolored and hybrid

Colorless, artifacts and lands


Rares (X/50)
White

Blue

Black

Red

Green

Multicolored and hybrid

Colorless, artifacts and lands


Mythic Rare (X/15)]
White

Blue

Black

Red

Green

Multicolored and hybrid

Colorless, artifacts and lands


If you want a better oversight of this list, I've also uploaded it here.
Author:  UselessCommon [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Rares
Serra Avenger
Morphling
Phage the Untouchable Lots of awesome options. Sleeper Agent, Crux of Fate, Triskadekaphobia...
Pia and Kiren Nalar ( Or half of them )
Eldritch Evolution

Great candidate for UB rare is Glimpse the Unthinkable

Uncommons
Angelic Accord
Sphinx's Tutelage
Annihilate
Geistblast start of the loose cycle.
Garruk's Packleader

Good candidates for uw uncommon is Fall of the Hammer, and Kiss of the Amesha

Commons
Seraph of Dawn I think Angel Tribal of some sort is super appropriate in this cube.
Seacoast Drake (watch Jeese Cox on Spellslingers on YouTube, and learn of it's awesome flavor.)
Typhoid Rats (Khans version flavor text)
Lightning Strike (flavor text how sparkmage summoned thunder of his youth)
Uktabi Orangutan (Art)
Author:  Yxoque [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Serra Avenger definitely goes in. It doesn't tickle my particular fancy, but I can understand why you like it.

Personally not a fan of Morphling. The artwork also throws me off. It's just so obvious the art is meant for a Clone card, rather than what it actually ended up as. Thornling sells the concept a lot better, which is rare in cards that pay a direct homage.

Phage the Untouchable is alright. Most legendaries will have an easy time getting in and Phage is pretty flavorful in her own right. The only thing that makes me a bit anxious is that putting her in a big black rare slot might prevent good Rise from the Grave targets from getting in. But maybe we won't have a ton of resurrection and it will work out alright. I'm putting her in, but she'll be dropped if need be.

Pia and Kiran Nalaar are great. They do require a critical mass of artifacts, but we'll see how that goes.

Angelic Accord gets in on artwork and flavortext, I assume. The card does push hard in a particular direction, seeing as its somewhat of a build-around-me uncommon. With other cards you suggested, we seem to be going towards a very controlly UW archetype, which might be fine, but could also warp the rest of the environment. Angelic Accord and Sphinx's Tutelage are tentatively in.

Geistblast also gets in (really digging the art), but depends on the sort of archetype UR ends up in.

Kiss of the Amesha is a wonderful little card, if overcosted. Fits our current direction for UW pretty good as well.

I don't get what's particularly special about Seacoast Drake and I can't quite watch videos at work :-)

I think you mean Lightning Bolt. Which is great, but might cause issues later down the line.

The ape bothers me.
Author:  AzureShade [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
If your cube is going to have a rare cycle of Legendaries with both Phage and the Nalaars, maybe these suggestions could help fill out that cycle:

White:
- Since you are going with Phage, she's most normally paired with Akroma, Angel of Wrath, but I'd suggest trying a different angel on for size. Avacyn, Angel of Hope is the same cost and arguably fends off Phage just as well (if not better), while her smaller version, Avacyn, Guardian Angel, comes down quicker and offers more choices while also being a good stop to Phage. On the non-angel front, Cho-Manno, Revolutionary is also a good Phage stopper, as is Commander Eesha.

Blue:
- Everyone (me) is always a fan of Arcanis, but we're trying to shy away from just reprinting all the pit fighters. If you wanted to see if a Morph/Megamorph theme could fit into your Vorthos Cube, I'd suggest Ixidor, Reality Sculptor. Still that leaves us deep in a weird time for Magic's Storyline. It doesn't get more flavorful in Blue than Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, and there are a lot of spells he's quoted on that would make good Cube filler, especially if you are going for flavor. Sakashima the Impostor may also be fun while filling your obligatory Clone slot.

Green:
- I was going to suggest Eladamri, Lord of Leaves if you were going to have an elf component, but his design is old and leads to poor game play. Melira, Sylvok Outcast doesn't work unless you really go all in on -1/-1 and poison counters or add in Kitchen Finks-like cards for real silliness. Mirri, Cat Warrior, as a character, is amazing, but her card is really underwhelming. Thelon of Havenwood would be nice if there was going to be a tribe for him to support. Thrun, the Last Troll is pretty flavorful in his own way. Yeva, Nature's Herald is an interesting counterpoint to Teferi if you use him. Green just doesn't really have that many compelling legendaries that aren't really niche.
Author:  Mown [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Flavorful eh? Aside from 75% of DFC's, let's see...
Rise from the Grave is probably the most flavorful reanimate card, although Zombify is a lot cleaner. Ever After is nice, if slightly cheesy, and Makeshift Mannequin has a soft spot in my heart.
Demonic Pact is a difficult card, but really juicy. Obliterate as well.
Explore and Rampant Growth are solid ramp inclusions.
Demystify and Shatter are simple interpretations of "why does this not work anymore", but they're not particularly good cards, if that is a concern.
For card draw, I like Browbeat and Concentrate. Meditate and Ior Ruin Expedition is pretty nice. Black I'm finding a bit difficult. Infernal Contract or Sanguimancy, perhaps.
Investigate itself is not that flavorful, but a lot of the cards with it are. Miracle is a pretty flavorful mechanic, but the cards aren't that great.
Author:  AzureShade [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Mown wrote:
Rise from the Grave is probably the most flavorful reanimate card, although Zombify is a lot cleaner.
You forgot Rescue from the Underworld.
Author:  Tevish Szat [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Yxoque wrote:
Kiss of the Amesha is a wonderful little card, if overcosted. Fits our current direction for UW pretty good as well.

It's actually kinda awesome in limited, even for the cost. I remember getting it late picks in alara drafts and laughing all the way to the bank, as it were.

I feel that of the MR set, we want 5+ PWs. That is, at least a cycle and maybe some in the multicolor/colorless set. Maybe the double-faced PWs because DFC is a thing, but I think you could get a better flavor set out of, say... Elspeth (Any version really but Sun's Champion seems good), Tamiyo 1, Ob Nix (I'd go with reignited but Black Oath is fine), Tibalt, and Freyalise

For the 10 rare lands in the uncommons, I'd like to see the painlands. They're nicely balanced, a complete 10-card cycle, and who doesn't miss Adarkar and Yavimaya? Either that, or do the futureshifted cycle plus allied pains. Yes that would be double allied. I have opinions about allied and enemy colors getting the same support. Maybe the classic allied pains plus the Tempest Tap-pain lands that were apparently uncommonified by Wizards in Tempest Remastered anyway? Personally I think that making enemy colored combos harder is good flavorfully, but this is a case where my opinions may be trumped by gameplay.

I want to see Obliterate at either rare or Mythic (using FTV:Lore to have that shiny orange expansion symbol). Has to have the classic flavor text though.
Author:  UselessCommon [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
"Green just doesn't really have that many compelling legendaries that aren't really niche."

Well, we have a definitive green champion - Silvos, Rogue Elemental
My vote for green legend.
For white legend, I like Cho - Manno.
For blue - Arcanis. (I don't think it is wrong to reprint 2 champions)

I just realized how AWESOME soi geistblast cycle is from a flavor perspective.
So I just suggest to add
Nahiri's Machinations - Winner, of course
Ongoing Investigation - Feeling of investigation, pursuit, pathological anatomy.
Behind the Scenes - Awesomeness
Autumnal Gloom - Melancholy
Author:  AzureShade [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
UselessCommon wrote:
"Green just doesn't really have that many compelling legendaries that aren't really niche."

Well, we have a definitive green legend - Silvos, Rogue Elemental
He's no more definitive than Polukranos, World Eater or Verdeloth the Ancient. I'd vote Multani, Maro-Sorcerer long before I even considered Silvos. Plus my suggestions were trying to avoid reprinting all the pit fighters.
Author:  UselessCommon [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
"Plus my suggestions were trying to avoid reprinting all the pit fighters."

That cycle is very definitive. Or is it ?

In previous post, card suggestions.
Author:  AzureShade [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
UselessCommon wrote:
"Plus my suggestions were trying to avoid reprinting all the pit fighters."

That cycle is very definitive. Or is it?
it is not. It is just a cycle of people who fight in pits.
Author:  UselessCommon [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Noted.

And everyone - please watch Jesse Cox Spellslingers video - you won't be disappointed.
Author:  Tevish Szat [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Of the Pit Fighters, Rorix got some play (Lorewise, with Bladewing the Risen and Tarox Bladewing), Silvos is a nobody, Jareth is a nobody, Arcanis became weirdly popular especially when he stayed a raceless wizard post grand creature type update, and I can't remember the black member of the cycle. Was it Phage? Fake Edit: Visara, moderately powerful card but nothing flavor to write home about.

My legend recs, trying to split up the sources to notable arcs...

:w:: Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker for Kamigawa, Gerrard Capashen for the Weatherlight Saga.
:u:: Stitcher Geralf for Innistrad, Memnarch for Mirrodin (He's got a blue color identity, it counts!)
:b:: Sheoldred, Whispering One for New Phyrexia, Maralen of the Mornsong for Lorwyn
:r:: Jaya Ballard, Task Mage for Ice Ace, Feldon of the Third Path for the Artifacts Cycle
:g:: Jolrael, Empress of Beasts for the Mirage War, Autumn Willow for Homelands
Other: That Which Was Taken for Kamigawa; Radha, Heir to Keld for Time Spiral/The Mending; Kruphix, God of Horizons for Theros; Hanna, Ship's Navigator for the Weatherlight Saga; Ghost Council of Orzhova for Ravnica; and Malfegor for Alara

I tried to pick legends that were both respectable as cards and respected as characters. I tried to get a good distribution of plots from across Magic's history, leaving out some of the more disliked -- Zendikar and Tarkir are pretty heavily sullied, and Otaria... well... I've said my piece on Otaria before.

Kamigawa and the Weatherlight Saga provide embarrassments of riches, but I restrained myself.
Author:  UselessCommon [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Visara the Dreadful. Gooood finisher.

Surprising how Silvos got no play. He seems very strong to me.
Joradel is just so awesome !

How is Michiko Konda white ? What ?
Author:  AzureShade [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Tevish Szat wrote:
Arcanis became weirdly popular especially when he stayed a raceless wizard post grand creature type update
The fact that he casts Ancestral Recall, looks extremely badass, and had a cool quote is what did it for a lot of us. Wizards has been trying to make Jace "room of cloaks" Beleren to be half as cool as Arcanis was for a very long time.
Author:  UselessCommon [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
How about including SOI enchantments ?
Author:  AzureShade [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
I'm not a fan, but it's not my Cube.
Author:  Yxoque [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
I'm currently practicing for an Overwatch tournament so I don't have that much time, but I wanted to get in a few comments:

1. I'm not sold on Phage. She sorta warps the environment around her with her specific abilities. Like, it's one thing to be beaten into submission by a Wingmate Roc (which is a horrible card to play against in Limited), but I think losing against Phage feels worse. I think Rise from the Grave will probably be included regardless, because it's really flavorful, but getting Phage and Rise from the Grave together would also suck. Like, I think we'd need to make so many decisions based on Phage, that I'm considering just dropping her altogether.

2. Demistify and Shatter are fine. They're okay sideboard cards, depending on what else gets in.

3. I like the idea of having a cycle of legendaries and one of planeswalkers.

4. I don't think the land cycle needs to be perfectly balanced. Making allied lands better than enemy lands would also be rather flavorful, so I'm down with it.

5. My Overwatch team needs a ton of practice.
Author:  AzureShade [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Well if you are cutting Phage (which is probably a great idea), then here are my suggestions for the Legendary cycle, complete with a handful of commons, uncommons, and Rares to support them...

White: Darien, King of Kjeldor
- Uses a pretty basic token type (Soldiers) that allows the use of many white token cards without causing memory issues.
- Is a fun old Legend that hearkens back to the time of the Ice Age.
- Thematic cards to choose from: Intangible Virtue, Knight-Captain of Eos, Martial Coup, Mobilization, Murder Investigation, Phantom General, , , , , , Raise the Alarm, Timely Reinforcements, Captain's Call, Deploy to the Front, any version of Elspeth, , , Entrapment Maneuver, Even the Odds, Attended Knight, and/or Benalish Commander.

Blue: Azami, Lady of Scrolls
- Vorthosi love Kamigawa! (Also Jace has been there.)
- The wizard legends I would have picked (Barrin, Master Wizard, Ertai, Wizard Adept, Ixidor, Reality Sculptor, or Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir) all have various issues that warp things in the wrong way.
- Thematic cards to choose from: Æther Adept, Alchemist's Apprentice, Azure Mage, Dakra Mystic, Descendant of Soramaro, Drowner Initiate, Exultant Cultist, Fallowsage, Graceful Adept, Jace's Archivist, Laboratory Maniac, Patron Wizard, Supreme Inquisitor, Jace Beleren, and/or Jace's Erasure.

Black: Anowon, the Ruin Sage
- Maralen of the Mornsong, while neat, leads to really unfun and repetitive games. Anawon is better choice because he is as relevant in Multi-player Cube games and he gets us onto Vampires instead of Zombies, allowing us to more easily use Sorin as our 'Walker representative.
- Vorthosi liked original Zendikar.
- Thematic cards to choose from: Arrogant Bloodlord, Barony Vampire, Blood Host, Blood Seeker, Bloodflow Connoisseur, Butcher of Malakir, Driver of the Dead, Elusive Tormentor/Insidious Mist, Indulgent Aristocrat, Malakir Cullblade, Pulse Tracker, Ruthless Cullblade, Stromkirk Mentor, Vampire Hexmage, Sorin Markov, Sorin's Thirst, Sorin's Vengeance, Barter in Blood, Sign in Blood, and/or Liturgy of Blood.

Red: Ashling the Pilgrim
- Lorwyn was a pretty place.
- Jaya Ballard is too out of color pie. Balthor and Lovisa are just a little too narrow.
- Thematic cards to choose from: Bogardan Firefiend, Crazed Firecat, Flamekin Harbinger, Flame-Kin War Scout, Goretusk Firebeast, Incandescent Soulstoke, Longhorn Firebeast, Savage Firecat, Smokebraider, Soulbright Flamekin, Sunflare Shaman, Tyrant of Discord, Mog Maniac, Boros Reckoner, Spitemare....and Wizards took the Gatherer down for maintenance. I'll maybe continue this later.
Author:  Pavor Nocturnus [ Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vorthos Cube
Oh wow, there's a lot going on here.

People have already suggested Feldon and the Nalaars as well as Investigate, so maybe the :u::r: archetype could be artifacts? Pretty straightforward, but artifacts are fun. Might want to add Tamiyo's Journal as well. And maybe :w::r: could be about equipment (at least as a subtheme) so there would be some healthy overlap? From a flavour perspective, I tend to like artifacts in general and equipment in particular with a classic adventure/RPG feel, but we'll have to see how much of that can meaningfully work for the cube as a whole. Some suggestions from this category would be:

Spoiler



Totally Lost isn't that great a card, and I'm not quite as crazy about Fblthp as some people, but the card is still pretty adorable and memetic. Parting Thoughts is decent creature removal with cool flavourtext by Leshrac.
Accursed Witch is pretty flavourful on her own, and as I've said before, I love the easter egg that it's basically the same curse Leshrac casts on Lim-Dûl. I'm also a fan of Curses in general, maybe there could be room for a Curse subtheme/alternate draft archetype in :b::r:..? It might be tough to fit them in, though.
The Traps and Quests from Zendikar tend to be pretty flavourful, too.

Edit: I'm seriously shocked there's only going to be five legends in that Vorthos cube, though.
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