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The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
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Author:  Barinellos [ Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
So, with Saheeli on the horizon and Daretti in the back seat, there's something that's been driving me crazy for a while.
Chiefly, how native planeswalkers are kinda pointless.

The thing about that is, when in a natural environment they grew up in, they really don't deserve that fancy walking title they bank the entire character on. They don't usually feel like planeswalkers. They don't demonstrate any talent or tool that couldn't be learned where they came from. And if that's the case, it's just stupid to use them that way. It feels hollow if they aren't special on the plane they're from.

There have been exceptions, of course, the likes of Kiora and others, but for the most part, being a walker doesn't matter for the natives. The absolute worst offender to this is Narset who literally looked out at the vast multiverse and said "nah, I'm still dragons!" And then just stayed. There could be an argument about it being the start of her journey, but it really wasn't. She'd already ascended at some point and just didn't do a damn thing.

So yeah, this had been getting on my nerves and felt it might be a good griping discussion point.

What thoughts do you all have about the mismanagement of the walker type?
Author:  Yxoque [ Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
I agree. I was thinking the exact same thing after reading Daretti's latest story. If this was only a one-time thing, it could be a big deal. "The 'walker who staid." The Multiverse was at their feet, with all its possibilities and discoveries. But What's-their-name didn't go. Couldn't go. Their homeplane needed them more.

Or something like that. But now we've got Daretti, Narset, Nissa, Arlinn, Domri(?), Kiora, Ral, Sarkhan and Sorin who mostly muck about on their own plane, defeating the point of them being planeswalkers. Not all of the above are as terrible as the others. Ral gets some conflict from being a 'walker, Sorin does take some interest in the rest of the Multiverse, Kiora at least goes out to find big beasties.

What makes this worse is that pretty much all of them become planeswalkers due to some violent trauma (because Wizards doesn't believe you can get good stories from happy Ascendings). If anything, the trauma that occurred on their homeplane should drive them away, or at least explore the Multiverse to deal with the problems that led to their trauma.

I don't want to drag in the quality of the storytelling for every discussion, but I do think that part of the problem is the quality of the storytelling. Due to the way they structure and write their stories, they can't get in enough explanations and/or nuance about why planeswalkers stay. Plus, they have to create more planeswalkers than they have room to use for the sake of marketing and design. I guess making a native planeswalker is comparatively less work, because you've already got a style guide describing the way the character should look.
Author:  Heliosphoros [ Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
It's almost like planeswalkers are now simply labels for "major character".
Author:  theamazingsquid [ Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
I wouldn't mind if native walkers showed up in later sets on different planes other than their own, but due to the gatewatch being a thing, its almost certain that will be very close to never happening
Author:  LilyStorm [ Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
Ergo, the gatewatch is once again proven to be a bad decision.
Author:  AzureShade [ Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
I think Tamiyo is actually one of the better ways I would like to meet a 'Walker: clearly out of place, with enough information that can be pieced together to inform where they came from (if we know about it) or at least tantalize my wanting to go there (if we haven't been yet).
Author:  astarael7 [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
I don't understand the complaint.

Is it that there are too many planeswalker characters who we haven't seen off of their native plane? Because that doesn't sound right to me. There are lots of characters who we have met and only seen on their home plane: Daretti, Xenagos, Ral Zerek, Narset. There are also lots of characters who we have met off their home plane: Jace, Liliana, Sarkhan, Sorin. There are also plenty of characters which we have only seen off their native plane (even when we know which plane that is): Elspeth, Garruk, Kaya, Ashiok.

Is it that too many planeswalkers who we meet on their home plane embody the look and feel of that plane? Is so, (a) why shouldn't they? They've literally grown up there, also, (b) there are lots of examples of planeswalkers who have adopted the look and feel of planes which are not their home (many of the examples I listed above qualify), also also, (c) that is how story-telling works in a mass-market visual medium? You use visual cues and character design to allow your audience to be able to associate character and place very easily.

Is it that we have met too many planeswalkers on their home planes whose stories then went nowhere? That's the fault of the pace of character creation (mandated by the needs of the card game) vastly out-stripping the pace of character advancement. When Magic's story advanced at most three times per year, that problem is unavoidable and unfixable. Now that the story advances 44-48 times per year, the problem has been mitigated somewhat.

Are any of these even close, or have I totally misunderstood the problem?
Author:  AzureShade [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
astarael7 wrote:
Is it that we have met too many planeswalkers on their home planes whose stories then went nowhere? That's the fault of the pace of character creation (mandated by the needs of the card game) vastly out-stripping the pace of character advancement. When Magic's story advanced at most three times per year, that problem is unavoidable and unfixable. Now that the story advances 44-48 times per year, the problem has been mitigated somewhat.
This is my closest approximation to the "problem." Also, I'd much rather meet new 'Walkers off of their homeworld and then maybe do a homeworld visit if the 'Walker cares enough about local events. I can see several 'Walkers who would leave their world behind for the Infinite Multiverse and never look back. They'd bump into some other 'Walker who was all "hey, I stopped by your homeworld the other day and things are going to **** there." and they'd reply "Great."
Author:  Yxoque [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
I find it genuinely refreshing to have someone here who likes what WotC is doing. Astarael, I hope our negativity doesn't drive you away, because I like having your perspective here.

I think the problem occurs with characters that have no motivation to leave their plane. In that case, them being planeswalkers is pretty much useless. Arlinn, Narset, Ral... simply have no good reason to be planeswalkers when it comes to the story. This isn't just a problem with the pace of character creation being way faster than the pace of the story. It would have been easy to just end their description with: "And now they are traveling the planes, looking for X."
Author:  RavenoftheBlack [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
I sort of wish they would do more of the sort of thing they did with Glissa in the original Mirrodin story (although not in terms of the actual writing in that story). I mean, significant people with latent sparks concerned with stories relevant to their own plane. That way, it makes perfect sense for them to stay on their own plane (because they can't leave) and yet you still have the option open to you late if you want to ignite their sparks and move them somewhere new.
Author:  Barinellos [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
astarael7 wrote:
I don't understand the complaint.
Are any of these even close, or have I totally misunderstood the problem?

The problem I have with it all is that walkers that don't leave their home planes also don't demonstrate anything that they didn't learn elsewhere either. The reason you make someone a walker is for the experience they can get that planebound characters can't, but what about Daretti, for example, makes him stand out from Grenzo?
Nothing.
Except legs.

He has no skill or viewpoint he picked up from another plane, his time spent off world wasn't meaningful. It doesn't demonstrate any growth that being a walker was necessary to.

Now, with Daretti, I'll give you that's all of one story and makes a terrible sample size, but it's more a symptom of a common theme in a chain of walkers.

Narset has nothing to distinguish her from the other Jeskai other than a philosophy. That she learned on Tarkir, not on another world. Being a walker isn't utilized for her character at all.
Ral is pretty much the posterchild of an Izzet guildmage. Don't you think he could catapult himself higher if he picked up some foreign magic/tech? The Izzet aren't the pinnacle of technology. (This one at least has a conflict that he's trying to keep it secret, which means they're using him being a walker for something. But if he never goes anywhere, it makes it hard to justify his paranoia.)
Vraska, on the other hand, has no skill or method of thinking that couldn't be learned on Ravnica. She's outside the guild structure, but she doesn't appreciably feel like she's been anywhere.
Domri, as much as I hate the turd, feels like he's changed because of his travel. Even if he was gone for literally ten minutes.

Now, this isn't a problem with all native walkers. Arlinn might not have any reason to leave Innistrad now, but she learned a unique skill off world. Xenagos had his entire world-view destroyed by his experience, and etc.

But it still feels like they aren't doing enough with some characters to make them stand out against the background of their homeworld. It makes their being planeswalkers not mean anything. Partly this is just the issue of them not having the space to develop characters like Tibalt, but narrowing down the focus to a recurring cast really doesn't help that. But Shadows over Innistrad didn't really have much of a problem, so we'll see how things go in the future.

But really, it comes down to the fact I want to see walkers toss around spells they couldn't learn at home. I want to see them pull out artifacts of foreign provenance, I want them to think differently from their peers because they've seen things the others couldn't imagine.
And you don't need hardly any space to do that.
Author:  Wahooney [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
Barinellos wrote:
what about Daretti, for example, makes him stand out from Grenzo?
Nothing.
Except legs.

Then I guess Grenzo is the one standing out :V
Author:  neru [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
Wasn't Vraska's first and only experience as a planeswalker her shunting herself into some pitch black underground hole? It basically made her crazy, resulting in her developing her psychotic sense of natural cycles/justice in her appearance, which was unfortunately lost or at least not apparent in Jace v Vraska.

Also, isn't Narset's awareness of worlds outside of what the Jeskai / Ojutai taught her part of how she develops and her curiosity and her eventual breaking through Ojutai's constructed reality. I do think Narset was a missed opportunity to have her keep that sense of rebellion and stay Jeskai colors, rather than conform to Ojutai.
Author:  Barinellos [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
neru wrote:
Wasn't Vraska's first and only experience as a planeswalker her shunting herself into some pitch black underground hole? It basically made her crazy, resulting in her developing her psychotic sense of natural cycles/justice in her appearance, which was unfortunately lost or at least not apparent in Jace v Vraska.

She's at least aware of Shandalar, Innistrad, and Zendikar, though we only know this because of name drops.
But the thing about her being dropped in a hole with only her thoughts is exactly part of my point.
That could have just as easily been Ravnica because there was nothing specifically that required it to be another plane for her to develop those thoughts.

Quote:
Also, isn't Narset's awareness of worlds outside of what the Jeskai / Ojutai taught her part of how she develops and her curiosity and her eventual breaking through Ojutai's constructed reality. I do think Narset was a missed opportunity to have her keep that sense of rebellion and stay Jeskai colors, rather than conform to Ojutai.

Nope. She ascended after breaking the taboos about researching the khanfall and discovering the truth.
It was the Jeskai Narset that dreamt of other worlds.
Author:  astarael7 [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
So the problem is that too many planeswalkers are homebodies. That's a fair complaint. I certainly prefer cases like Tibalt are are definitely off somewhere but we don't know where that is. And Arlinn Kord being completely absent from the story (let alone that she's apparently also stuck on Innistrad) was criminal. I'm hoping we'll see her again soon. (And that the faster pace of story means she won't be just dangling for years and years like too many characters have been.)
Author:  isaic16 [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
I'm not sure I get the Narset complaint. Wasn't the whole point of her story the idea of her coming to terms with her role in Tarkir? And at the end, she accepted her discovery and this gave her the self confidence to move on? Or did I completely not get the story. My understanding is that she left and hasn't gone back since at the end of her story. You could say her being a planes walker didn't affect her character, but that's because her card represents her almost right after igniting. I can understand a lot of other listed characters, but Narset I don't get.
Author:  Barinellos [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
Narset didn't leave.
Sarkhan and Ugin asked if she was going to, but she said there were still mysteries on Tarkir she wanted to solve.
Author:  Heartless Hidetsugu [ Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
I'd have to agree with Azure here. Tamiyo's my favorite spin on a planeswalker that's removed from their homeplane. I would have liked to seen something similar done with Saheeli - introduce her on Vryn as a noteable personage who applied her knowledge of artifice from Kaladesh to Vryn. Forge a little connection there, establish Saheeli's character by emphasizing credentials and academics or something like that.
Author:  astarael7 [ Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
Has it been officially confirmed that Saheeli is a native of Kaladesh? (It seems incredibly likely that she is, but I just want to know if they have said that.)
Author:  Barinellos [ Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The irksome conundrum of native planeswalkers
Officially, not explicitly, but it's been implied heavily.
But between everything, I'd have a hard time believing she was from anywhere else.
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