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MTG Deity Alignments?
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Author:  Planechaser [ Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  MTG Deity Alignments?
Considering the Plane Shift: Insert MTG Plane Here game is real, and I was already considering participating in the fun, I figured I'd pick some brains about appropriate alignments for so-called deities amongst the multiverse. Here are my assumptions so far, feel free to add or critique as you please:

Emeria/Kamsa: Chaotic Good (PS:Z states that Merfolk are commonly True Neutral, but Cosi Creed and Emeria Creed have Chaotic leanings, + Kor are commonly Lawful Good, and thus sometimes 1 step away if not Lawful Good and they should be easily capable of worshipping said false gods as well)
Ula/Mangeni: Neutral
Cosi/Talib: Chaotic Neutral
Emrakul/Ulamog/Kozilek: Unaligned
Linvala/Iona: Lawful Good? (One Lawful Neutral, other Neutral Good?)
Avacyn: Lawful Good? Lawful Neutral? Neutral Good?
Avacyn (Post-Madness): Chaotic Good? Lawful Evil? (It seems according to AoI, Avacyn and the other angels behave similar to Zendikar itself & the Roil, Emrakul has confused Avacyn & co but she still feels there is a force that needs to be purged, but due to confusion, inability to properly sense Emrakul, and/or Emrakul's influence on mankind, she attacks humans, so she either acts Lawfully based on her "programming", or believes she is doing good in wiping out this evil force she believes is manifesting in Innistrad's peoples)

Griselbrand: Chaotic Evil?
Ormendhal: Lawful Evil?
Withengar: ????
Shilgengar: ???? (Being the source of all vampires, and PS:I makes vampire monsters Neutral Evil, it's the most obvious choice)
Xathrid: ????
Rakdos: Chaotic Evil

Heliod: Lawful Neutral
Thassa: Neutral
Erebos: Neutral Evil
Purphoros: Chaotic Neutral? Chaotic Good?
Nylea: Chaotic Good
Ephara: Lawful Good
Phenax: Lawful Evil? Chaotic Evil? Neutral Evil?
Mogis: Chaotic Evil
Xenagos: Chaotic Evil
Karametra: Neutral Good? Lawful Good? Chaotic Good?
Athreos: Neutral?
Pharika: Neutral Evil?
Kruphix: Neutral
Keranos: Chaotic Neutral
Iroas: Chaotic Good


Any other obvious "deities" I failed to list? I'm certain Dominaria and Ravnica have deities I've completely skipped. What about Mirrodin? The suns themselves as forces of "nature" worthy of reverence?
Author:  Heliosphoros [ Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
Theros gods:

Heliod: Lawful Evil (hideously petty tyrant)

Thassa: True Neutral

Erebos: Lawful Neutral (is obsessed with fatalism at the expense of nearly everything else, but is not entirely devoid of compassion as in "Emonberry Red")

Purphoros: Chaotic Neutral

Nylea: Chaotic Good/Neutral (depends on how hypocritical she is)

Ephara: Lawful Good

Phenax: Chaotic Evil (atypically for a character, he is entirely driven by his own sadistic whims)

Mogis: Chaotic Evil

Xenagos: Chaotic Evil

Karametra: Lawful Good (her Lawful side is what seperates her from Nylea)

Athreos: Lawful Neutral

Keranos: Chaotic Neutral

Pharika: True Neutral (is the goddess of medicine, after all, and her followers do heal people)

Iroas: Unknown, because he is essentially a non-character. Can run the gambit from Chaotic Good to Lawful Evil.

Kruphix: Neutral Good (ultimately the most benevolent of the Theros deities)

Zendikar Gods:

Kamsa/Emeria: Lawful Good

Ula/Mangeni: Lawful Neutral

Cosi/Talib: Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil

Iona & Linvala: Unknown, possibly ranging the Lawful alignments.

Innistrad Gods

Avacyn: Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral. Remember, she was basically a robot following orders. After corruption she became some flavour of Chaotic or Lawful Evil, since she began massacring people because she honestly thought they were evil.

Griselbrand: Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil

Ormendahl: Neutral Evil

Withengar: Another non-character. Probably ranging the Evil alignments

Shilgengar: Neutral Evil

Kralmar: Chaotic Evil
Author:  Planechaser [ Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
My only main arguments against any of your interpretations consists of the worship iitself: Heliod does behave in a Lawful Evil way, no argument there, but his worshippers have so far been unaware of this, and his devout worshippers are more often bound to be good, thus unable to worship him in game. Samebgoes for the. Eldrazi Titans' false god personas, while a Merfolk player CAN choose to be of an extreme alignment, the intentions for Merfolk is Neutral and Kor are intended to be Lawful Good and it can be surmised that 1 step away is also fair starting assumption, but with that design in mind, Kor & Merfolk should be able to worship them appropriately.

I definitely see Pharika's neutrality on the Good/Evil axis, but I'm unsure if she would be True Neutral or perhaps Chaotic Neutral... Though what makes Kruphix "good"? He seems to know for the sake of knowing, and isn't malicious.
Author:  Heliosphoros [ Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
He actively works to protect Theros and maintain the balance within.
Author:  Planechaser [ Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
Heliosphoros wrote:
He actively works to protect Theros and maintain the balance within.
How so?
Author:  Heliosphoros [ Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
He imposed the Silence, for example. He's also keeping track of explanar threats, with emphasis on the mortals.
Author:  Planechaser [ Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
Heliosphoros wrote:
He imposed the Silence, for example. He's also keeping track of explanar threats, with emphasis on the mortals.
Wasn't the Silence kind of a Lawful restriction on the gods' actions?

Though the "within 1 step away from your deity's alignment" thing still stands for Emeria/Kamsa, Ula/Mangeni, Cosi/Talib, and Heliod...
Author:  Heliosphoros [ Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
Well, if you consider it Lawful in the sense of restricting action, yes. But generally speaking Kruphix is not very Lawful.
Author:  Planechaser [ Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
I definitely have to read the godsend e-books sometime, though unsure of which gods make an active appearance in it.

Considering the Merfolk & Kor's expected alignments, and alignment leaning based on the Ula/Cosi/Emeria-based creeds, I have to believe Emeria is Chaotic Goood & Cosi is Chaotic Neutral. Since it mentions no Lawful, Good, or Evil leaning, have to go with Emeria & Cosi being Chaotic Good & Chaotic Neutral respectively. Though if Cosi is Chaotic Neutral, then a Kor would have to be Neutral, which isn't how they're written up. So that might indicate Emeria/Cosi/Ula are worshiped different enough from Kamsa/Talib/Mangeni...

Emeria: Chaotic Good
Ula: Neutral
Cosi: Chaotic Neutral
Kamsa: Lawful Good/Neutral Good/Lawful Neutral
Mangeni: Lawful Good/Neutral Good/Lawful Neutral
Talib: Lawful Good/Neutral Good/Lawful Neutral
Author:  TPmanW [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
So D&D rules say that you must have an alignment compatible with your god's (not necessarily portrayed, but actual) alignment? I never would have guessed that.
Author:  Planechaser [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
TPmanW wrote:
So D&D rules say that you must have an alignment compatible with your god's (not necessarily portrayed, but actual) alignment? I never would have guessed that.
Well, your alignment lining up with your deity's is absolutely a thing, but nothing has ever said that I'm aware of about if the alignment needs to be about the divine character's actual in-practice alignment, or the alignment that has stuck into said deity's worship. Just strange to imagine Neutral Evil Clerics of Heliod....
Author:  TPmanW [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
So, does your god know your alignment then? You can't be evil and just fake it working for a good god?
Author:  Planechaser [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
I doubt Heliod OR his Clerics BELIEVE he's evil, so not so sure Heliod would be happy with primarily evil worshippers.
Author:  neru [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
Planechaser wrote:
Well, your alignment lining up with your deity's is absolutely a thing, but nothing has ever said that I'm aware of about if the alignment needs to be about the divine character's actual in-practice alignment, or the alignment that has stuck into said deity's worship. Just strange to imagine Neutral Evil Clerics of Heliod....

In some editions of D&D, this is true, but in others (4E and 5th), this is not.

Also, clerics can derive their power from their faith and not necessarily the actual deity, so I think it's possible to finesse 3/3.5 so that Heliod is LE but Heliod's worship is LG.
Author:  Barinellos [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
Planechaser wrote:
I doubt Heliod OR his Clerics BELIEVE he's evil, so not so sure Heliod would be happy with primarily evil worshippers.

He probably honestly wouldn't care given the way he treats worshipers in the first place.
Author:  Pavor Nocturnus [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
There's also Yawgmoth and Gix (probably Lawful Evil), and some Oldwalkers were worshipped one way or another if you want to include those. Serra (Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral?), Freyalise (Neutral Good?), Fiers (though very little is known about him and his existence isn't really confirmed), maybe Leshrac and Tevesh Szat (both Chaotic Evil?). Gabriel Angelfire is worshipped in Benalia, though I don't really know anything about him. People in Efuan Pincar in Terisiare worshipped a god called Avohir after the Flood Ages who was probably a lot like the Abrahamic god (so probably Lawful Good). Gaea is a thing, too, obviously (Neutral? Neutral Good?).

Ravnica has Krokt, though not much is known about him apart from the fact that he is mostly worshipped by goblins (so he's probably some form of Chaotic), and the Nephilim (probably Chaotic Neutral?). Also, Rakdos (Chaotic Evil?) and Mat'Selesnya (Neutral? Lawful Neutral?).

The moons of Mirrodin aren't really worshipped as gods by anyone IIRC, though the goblins seem to personify them
to some extent and ascribe an astrological influence to them.

I don't know much about DnD's alignment system, so my suggestions are entirely based on the meaning of the words as such. And I just realised gods that probably don't exist might be irrelevant, so you can ignore a few.
Author:  neru [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
The nephilim do not seem sapient and so are Unaligned (4e/5e) or True Neutral (3/3.5).

Although the Conclave may act sinister or dickish at times, Mat'Selesnya is pretty Lawful Good.
Author:  Heliosphoros [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
Planechaser wrote:
I doubt Heliod OR his Clerics BELIEVE he's evil, so not so sure Heliod would be happy with primarily evil worshippers.


Personal delusion doesn't seem to affect D&D alignment, which is primarily based on actions. Some canon Lawful Evil characters genuinely think they're doing good (it's one of LE cult tactics to rope in followers), yet are still Evil.

Heliod either way seems to care more about praise than moral character. It's entirely possible that he occasionally kills people he deems "evil", given how fickle and delusional he is, but for the most part worshippers are there to exalt him as the king of the gods. This is on par with LE religions in D&D.

As for Gabriel Angelfire, I don't think he was ever a canon character. Either way, his church seems mostly Neutral Good, but they were an antagonist force in story if I'm not mistaken.
Author:  Planechaser [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
So idk, what if you wanted to be a Neutral Good or Lawful Good Cleric of Heliod, based on the popular opinion that Heliod was Good? I do believe Heliod does good too, perhaps we judge him too much from our heroes' (Elspeth & Ajani, and planeswalkers in general) point of view. I'm positive he does good too in most other respects, and smiting Arixmethes does fall into the category of what a god might do, if a canon D&D god wiped out all Tieflings & Drow for example, from a GOD'S point of view that may have been within his rights to do good by the rest of mortal civilization, or to destroy abominations due to them being atrocities against the laws of reality, is pretty lawful. I view Heliod as being a god typically disgusted and afraid of vastly abnormal occurrences. A mortal becoming a god, or a mortal having outside knowledge and power even a god may not possess is frighteningly different to mortal and god alike.

Just like player characters. One relatively selfish or "malicious" act does not an Evil character make. As far as I'm concerned, the Xenagos vs Elspeth vs Heliod debacle is all just a single ordeal in Heliod's eyes. It was ONE necessary evil with multiple necessary steps. In Heliod's opinion. To me, he's still Lawful Neutral. He still represents law and to a certain extent Good, just as we don't view Thassa as Evil for taking action against Kiora for masquerading as her; a god.

Should Avacyn have a sane alignment and a mad alignment, or just one that is unaffected both ways, or just a sane one regardless, due to recent events revealing her mad version simply represents Avacyn's inability to resist the cryptoliths mana-tugging and Emrakul's sanity sapping?

Even in Plane Shift: Innistrad, the madness brought on by Emrakul doesn't necessarily make you change alignment, it merely drops your sanity score.
Author:  neru [ Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: MTG Deity Alignments?
I think you're generally delving into the issues with D&D alignment.

In 3/3.5, Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil are objective multiuniversal forces. There is nothing about points of view. In 4E and 5E, these are not so much objective forces, but there is a sense of a degree of objectivity because Good and Evil are defined and they would be useless textually if they were solely based on perspective.

Being Good includes true respect for life and consideration for other beings' dignity and well-being to the point of personal sacrifice. Being Evil means destroying life, harming and oppressing others, arbitrarily or for personal gain. Being Neutral means either 1. not having the commitment to do great harm to others nor to make personal sacrifices to help others (aka Unaligned in 4/5) or 2. being committed to maintaining personal and/or universal balance between the two.

Heliod has demonstrated that he is willing to kill for no reason other than personal displeasure. He exalts himself in his actions, which include destruction and murder. That he feels justified or that he may delude himself into imagining he is maintaining order does not preclude his actions being Evil.

Edit: In another way, a zealot who pursues Goodness to the point of losing perspective, not respecting life and dignity, taking immoral means toward a Good end has become Neutral at best and potentially Evil.
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