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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 9:45 am 
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We know that a return to good old Dominaria is something that WotC wants to do sooner or later, and Maro said that they first need to figure out how to fit a plane like Dominaria into the modern design paradigms and block structure and whatnot. So, broadly speaking, how would you handle a return to Dominaria? What do you expect to be in there? What would you try to avoid? Are there any specific ideas you'd be keen on seeing implemented? Which places or aspects of the plane would you focus on?

My take on the subject:
Spoiler

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:26 am 
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I think if Jace hands Tamiyo a Gatewatch badge at the end of SOI/EMN, I'd rather have her be the Gatewatch Rep for a return to Dominaria. I mean, one of the moons there is actually an orbital laser. That's got to be a fun study. also with four sets and a tourist vibe, Tamiyo fits the bill as our tour guide better anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:46 am 
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You're asking for a LOT of disparate elements in there.
There's no way you could tie even half that stuff in together like they did in Time Spiral.
Kind of feel like you would need to choose your spot and stand upon it rather than try to do a huge plane wide spanning thing. You do have to recall that Dominaria is about the times the size of most worlds and for most of it's history has been about regional focused stories.

You should also probably be aware that by and large Time Spiral was considered an absolute mess that tried to do way too much. There's no way they'd repeat that.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 12:35 pm 
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I'd be fine with a Return to Dominaria where we focuses on wherever Liliana is from and broke some new ground there while also having card call-backs to various popular things from the past. Like I want someone to tell Liliana that the Phyrexians are still around and her going off on a tirade about what happen to her little corner of Dominaria when the Invasion happened. I assume that she didn't completely shun her ancestral home for all time after becoming a 'Walker, even if she deeply fears both the memory of her brother and the Raven Man.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 1:31 pm 
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No. I already dislike Dominaria as it was, let alone in this retcon driven era.

Plus, I think even alluding to it steals the spotlight from other planes.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 4:22 pm 
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Bolas gets word of a rising member of the Umezawa clan on Dominaria. It could be that this Umezawa is the real deal; it could be a battlemage looking to make a name for himself in Madara. Eitherway, Bolas dispatches Tezzeret to Dominaria to deal with this potential threat.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 4:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 5:17 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
I think if Jace hands Tamiyo a Gatewatch badge at the end of SOI/EMN, I'd rather have her be the Gatewatch Rep for a return to Dominaria. I mean, one of the moons there is actually an orbital laser. That's got to be a fun study. also with four sets and a tourist vibe, Tamiyo fits the bill as our tour guide better anyway.
Agreed, Tamiyo would be a great choice anyway, but bonus points if she can be used to tick the Gatewatch box and spare us the other four losers.

Barinellos wrote:
You're asking for a LOT of disparate elements in there.
There's no way you could tie even half that stuff in together like they did in Time Spiral.
Kind of feel like you would need to choose your spot and stand upon it rather than try to do a huge plane wide spanning thing. You do have to recall that Dominaria is about the times the size of most worlds and for most of it's history has been about regional focused stories.

You should also probably be aware that by and large Time Spiral was considered an absolute mess that tried to do way too much. There's no way they'd repeat that.
The impression I got from Maro was that cramming the entire plane into one visit is pretty much what they are up to (but maybe that's just me, and whatever he says can certainly change later in the process). I mean, as I said, I wouldn't go anywhere near as crazy in terms of mechanics as Time Spiral did, but I feel it should be near the more complex end of the spectrum Wizards is comfortable with. And in regards to the setting as such, the idea of focusing on a different continent each set is what's supposed to prevent it from becoming a mess. You'd have one full set to show each continent, plus maybe a handful of cards from smaller or less important locations. The conflicts would mostly be pretty local with this, too. The Domains could have a conflict between Keld and New Benalia, Terisiare something about Ashiok and Marit Lage etc. It's not like Dominaria needs another global cataclysm anyway. Sure, in a perfect world we'd have a block set on Dominaria every two years or so, so showing just one place every block would be fine. But it's already been way too long since we last saw it, and it will have been even longer by the time Return to Dominaria actually happens, and then we'll be stuck with that tiresome planeshopping again (possibly forever). If they did a block that was like "Oh hey, there's some stuff going on in Jamuraa" then my reaction would be "Okay, that was amazing. Now show me the rest". If I have to wait for ten years for every visit to Dominaria, then I want to see the whole thing at least once. Think of it as a big establishing shot. We don't even know how anything on that plane looks like post-Mending.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:04 pm 
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Need not be a true Umezawa. I like the idea of someone picking up the name from Madaran history and running with it.

Pavor, you might need a mastermind type character to adequately cover the goings-on across the plane. I liked Radha, so my preference would be either Radha or one of her descendants sending Keldon/Skyshroud envoys across the plane to treat with or reave the other lands.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 8:38 pm 
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I actually agree in that I don't think a return to Dominaria is going to be a good thing.

Obviously I want rebels and I want saproligns and I want Squirrels and I want the Cabal and I want Cephalids and I want Ixidor and I want Ixidor and I want Ixidor and I want Ixidor

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 8:11 am 
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Pavor, you might need a mastermind type character to adequately cover the goings-on across the plane. I liked Radha, so my preference would be either Radha or one of her descendants sending Keldon/Skyshroud envoys across the plane to treat with or reave the other lands.
Only if all four sets are supposed to have a strong storyline connection rather than their own local conflicts. Tamiyo acting as a kind of tourist guide or observer with an outsider's perspective as Azure suggested might work well enough (which would mostly be expressed through flavour text probably). I think if I had to settle for something like a central cast to tie all locations together, I'd pick Jodah, Jhoira and Teferi (and possibly Karn). They are all from different parts of Dominaria (Shiv, Zhalfir, Argive), and Jhoira could build a new ambulator as a plot device to help them travel the world in no time. The fact that they're all pretty popular characters as far as I can tell should help, too.

That said, I definitely see where the people who think Return to Dominaria is generally a bad idea are coming from. When Maro said that they'd have to figure out how to adapt Dominaria to their current model of dealing with planes, my first thought was "Wait, I don't think that's the way you should do it AT ALL". Returning to Dominaria and royally screwing it up would be worse than just not returning there and letting it live on in people's imagination. On the other hand, these retcon-ridden times have driven me to assume that they'll screw up every return to every plane until proven otherwise, even if I really want to see that plane again. Innistrad 2.0 looks great so far, though, and I really wouldn't have thought they could make it that awesome. I'm just pretty sick of planeshopping in general by now, despite there being quite a few cool planes, and I'm also frustrated that they burned almost all bridges to the older lore. So, yeah, I'm really homesick for Dominaria and some of the old faces. I think the best thing they could do would be to find a better balance between the current planeshopping model and the old Dominaria-as-the-default-plane model. They should make blocks set on Dominaria on a regular or semi-regular basis, with a few new planes and returns to other planes in between. That way, Magic would have a 'home' again that people could relate to while not forgetting that there's a whole multiverse out there to explore.

@the Umezawa thing: I haven't had the chance to catch up with Legends II yet, so I don't know much about the Umezawas from Madara, but I'd rather save that sort of thing for Kamigawa. Which would also allow it to get a bigger focus in the story as opposed to being a B- or C-plot in an already busy Dominaria block. Maybe Kiku had a child from Toshi after Saviors and started a line of badasses that were thus descendants of the Umezawa line but didn't bear the name and weren't on Bolas' radar when he killed all Umezawas. Maybe a member of that line learns about the past of his/her family and the feud with Bolas, possibly from the Myojin of Night's Reach. Then he/she would somehow ignite their spark, become a 'walker, decide to plot Bolas' downfall, join the Gatewatch etc. Oooor something like that. :two:

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 10:35 am 
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So no one else is onboard with a Return to Dominaria being used to explore Liliana's family lands in more depth?

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 1:49 pm 
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I definitely am, I just wouldn't build the whole block (or double-block) around it. I'd just integrate it into the block structure I proposed and make Liliana's homeland a part of one of the prominent continents. I would definitely give her a card, and she could still have a few stories where she's exploring some forgotten mystery in her old castle or tracking down something or someone etc. So, you'd bascially go with a normal two-set block and focus mostly on Liliana's home and the surrounding area? Do you have any preference as to where you'd locate her home? My gut says somewhere in the Domains or Corondor would feel about right (based on no particular evidence). I was incredibly disappointed that her story in Magic Origins basically didn't feature Dominaria at all and didn't give us the tiniest shred of info about the setting of the story. There was also a story in some Duels game where they had a campaign about Liliana visiting her old castle and fighting the Raven Man there. I think there was even an offhand-mention of that fight in an Uncharted Realms. I remember being quite bummed that they wasted that opportunity for a computer game rather than saving it for an actual set.

Edit: I guess I could live with a two-set block that's mostly about Liliana if we could get another two-set block directly after that that's set in a different part of Dominaria. But a total of just two sets would definitely fall into the "too little too late" category.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Speaking of returns in general, MaRo just put up an article today where he talks about mistakes he has learned and returning to not-Zendikar for Battle for Zendikar made the list:

Spoiler

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 12:55 pm 
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I find that weirdly promising for the inevitable return to Tarkir... I don't think flavor folks are alone in preferring Khans to Dragons.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 2:21 pm 
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I thought the problem was more they tried to meet in the middle ground on the Return to Zendikar? They took the set and tried to make aggressive and battle cruiser both work.


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 2:33 pm 
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We'll find out later this summer when he posts his State of Design article I'm sure. But yes, it is nice to know that they see that they screwed up about where the focus should have been.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 5:14 pm 
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On the other hand, it also means that they'll never shake up the status quo on pretty much any plane* and that a lot of developments in the storyline will be ignored/reversed/retconned. Mirrodin: You thought the plane was empty now? Ha! Ravnica: You thought the Guilds were gone? Ha! I think they actually did a pretty good job with Innistrad, though, they managed to throw the plane back into darkness and move away from the boring AVR stuff in a pretty organic way that wasn't too on the nose and got explained in the stories. I was also in the camp that really enjoyed all the returning mechanics and in-jokes in Time Spiral, but the two sets after that were just weird for the sake of being weird mechanically and I found that very off-putting. I absolutely agree with Maro that the things that made Zendikar Zendikar weren't really there in BFZ and OGW and that the setting just didn't come to life anymore. But I don't see how they could have avoided that from a storyline perspective, at least not after that M15 story that showed us the extent of Zendikar's destruction. Okay, that story was probably written only after it was clear to WotC were Zendikar 2.0 was going, but we knew as early as ROE that there were three plane-eating monstrosities and armies of their broodlines tearing Zendikar apart, so the change of the setting and the nature of the conflict was only consistent. Doesn't mean the mechanics couldn't have been better and more appealing, but things like Quests and Traps simply wouldn't have made sense on a plane on the brink of destruction. I still haven't forgiven anyone the lack of vampire tribal and strong vampires in Zendikar 2.0, though. That was my favourite part about the original Zendikar block and can't be blamed on story constraints. And I have nothing but contempt for Tarkir and will skip that return anyway, so they can do with that dross whatever the hell they want as long as it doesn't make the continuity screwup of the first block even worse...


*Not that shaking up the status quo of a plane is a good thing per se, but if nothing's ever at stake and every kind of apparent progress never goes anywhere, then the storyline and worldbuilding become stale.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 6:09 pm 
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Eh traps COULD have made a comeback but they truly needed a power upgrade. Though if they really wanted a funny adding in Miracles to Battle would have been hilarious. I too was kinda miffed about vamps, as well as goblins. Sure we got another Wacker but goblin guide and the other goblins in the set were truly fun. Not that Id EVER expect to see the best red one drop ever reprinted


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 6:30 pm 
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Changes are going to happen but they will likely be far more gradual.

Like I think at its heart Innistrad will always be a dark place. Zendikar, given a few decards, will likely become the next Dominaria. A rather bland fantasy world. There won't be many ancient ruins left. There won't be a Roil. But for the next return, and maybe the one after, it'll still have a lot of wilds to reclaim.

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