Jace is still probably the lightest hit of the other four, as it was a retcon based on the ideas of omission rather than contradiction, with only the ravnica connection being the hardest to accept.

The rest are a descending order of disasters.

I love this idea and would love to see it played out further... Yxoque, I feel like we can assume you're the Creative Team director here, so why don't you make a final call, given the discussion so far, as to how we should proceed with Time Spiral and Lorwyn, and then we can move on to reworking Alara?

My brainstate hasn't allowed me to engage as much as I wanted with this thread, so I'm going to give myself a deadline: I'll be posting a summary of the discussion and my preferred decision before next Sunday and then we can have some brief discussion before moving on.

I think it's important to point out that this isn't a strictly linear endeavor. If we, at some point, dislike earlier decisions, we can always change them.

Okay, after reviewing this thread, I think our safest option is to introduce the planeswalkers during Lorwyn and give them basically B-plots that don't really tie into the story. The story is very much focused on the natives and apart from completely rewriting it I don't see a better option. I don't know the story that well, so before moving on I'd like to see if people see opportunities to make the Lorwyn 5 (or some of them) a small part of the story. If this requires bending the existing story a little, I'm okay with that.

I know Barinellos objects to having humans, nacatl and Zendikari elves on Lorwyn, but I think we can bend the setting around this without breaking it. Especially since we can make some of the B-stories about the strangeness of these beings on this world. (Like Chandra being an unexpected friend to the Flamekin, or Nissa somehow fitting in with the Elves.)

This leaves the issue of which planeswalkers to include. I think switching Garruk for Nissa is too good an opportunity to pass on. Ajani doesn't really make sense in this situation, especially since he can be introduced one block after this. I'm not sure who to pick here. Gideon is unnecessary, Elspeth doesn't quite make sense. I'm a bit at a loss here to the point that I'm thinking Venser (which would also smooth over the post-Time Spiral transition). Chandra, Liliana and Jace can stay. I'd also space their introduction out over the sets, rather than having them all at once. Maybe also tie the characters a bit to the plane, like Jace's faerie can be someone he met on Lorwyn (making the scene in Agents of Artifice even more heartbreaking). It's probably too big of a stretch to have one of Liliana's demons on Lorwyn (or Shadowmoor), because the plane doesn't really have demons.

I really liked Keeper's suggestion that the Lorwyn 5 each get a story featured on Taste the Magic. I think this also smooths over the transition and would probably make people excited about the characters. I wouldn't really set those stories on Lorwyn (although one might be okay), but rather make them glimpses into the lives and motivations of those characters. A bit like what Magic Origins should have been.

I've sorta ignored the possibility to put another block between Time Spiral and Lorwyn-Shadowmoor, but this doesn't really solve any problems regarding Lorwyn and is too big of a change right of the bat. If anything, I sooner scrap Lorwyn altogether and switch it for another setting and story, but this is also too big a change. I also don't think it's a terrible thing of the introduction of planeswalkers is lower-key than the following stories. Especially since Alara can put the focus on planeswalkers without much problem.

In summary: The idea is to leave Lorwyn mostly untouched, but just making the planeswalkers part of the setting.

I'll let us discuss this a little bit further, and make a new thread about Alara somewhere in the following week.

I like the idea of still having them in Lorwyn but giving them their own plots just to introduce them, but what about starting the cross Planeswalker storyline early? I feel like the earlier you start it the less jumbled it will be, and the better it will get. You wouldn't have to start it big, just enough to introduce it.

I think maybe starting with three of the Planeswalkers would have been a better idea, and then introducing the other two in the subsequent sets would be a good idea. For my lineup I'd probably start with Jace, Chandra, and Nissa (or Garruk, what ever floats your boat) on Lorwyn doin some stuff/meeting each other in shenanigan filled adventures. It would actually fit for them to meet on Lorwyn; they would be able to know that the other people are Planeswalkers because there are no humans on Lorwyn, and Nissa doesn't look like a Lorwyn elf. Introduce some white Planeswalker on Alara (either Elspeth or Ajani, for obvious reasons) and introduce Lilliana somewhere else down the line.

I actually think it would be a cool community project to make an official mending remake.

One of my favorite aspects of Seasons of Dusk is the way that Szat's stories all intersect with one another in various ways (and I think some other folks created similarly tangentially related stories). I'm wondering if we might introduce something like that with the Shadowmoor anthology for one or two of our Planeswalkers: have some plot threads weaving through it that come together in a final story.

I still think we need a bridge to the past that helps the issues of the Mending somewhat. With that, I propose that Liliana's mothership story should make more overt use of her Dominarian past (though not the full details, maybe just enough to show a connection to some of the other history of the plane) and that Keral Keep should more explicitly involve Jaya as a person who is probably alive but hasn't actually been around for a while. Both of these things might crop up in the Lorwyn main story or in the Shadowmoor anthology idea as proposed above.

Chandra seems our best bet for integration into the narrative, because of the connection between the LorMor storyline and flame (kindled or guttered).

In response to the line up, I strongly STRONGLY oppose Liliana in Lorwyn.
I'm also not a fan of getting the friendlies started early on Lorwyn. The fact that Jace and Chandra started as antagonists feels very apropos and Lorwyn is a weird place to start that. Jace practically already has a story on Lorwyn, but it's a very poor one. Instead, there was a story from the anthology that could be suited for him (the one about the fairy trying to figure out the aurora)

It might sound strange, and it would in fact be WAY ahead of the curve, but Ashiok fits very well on the world. The greater elementals are made of dream stuff.

In response to the stories, do remember that at this time, we'd have access to another resource: webcomics.

What's the problem with Liliana on Lorwyn? I'm okay with switching her out and the idea of introducing Ashiok this early is interesting. It would fill the hole that Ajani leaves in that all the planeswalkers we have right now look basically human.

Jace and Chandra don't need to meet on Lorwyn, just be their at roughly the same time. Or Jace is there during Shadowmoor and Chandra during Lorwyn. Or something.

Maybe we can keep the webcomics for introducing Chandra's and Jace's conflict so it can coincide with their duel-deck.

That still leaves us without a White planeswalker. My girlfriend suggested making our own character and a Giant or Kithkin planeswalker might be fun, but I'd rather avoid having too much OCs around. Especially this early on.

The planeswalkers we have available are:

• Ajani, which doesn't work because we need Vengeant to come first
• Elspeth, who I just don't see on either Lorwyn or Shadowmoor and who'll get a card in the next set
• Gideon, who's mostly unnecessary here, but could work (it would give us a nice 2 men, 2 women, one agender split)
• Nahiri, which doesn't work chronologically
• Narset, which could work but makes us think about Tarkir too much early on
• Sorin, who probably won't get White in this endeavor
• Venser

I'm not really sold on the idea, but Gideon might be the best to work with. I just don't see what he could possibly do here, though.

It's a bit two fold really. There's no necromancy on Lorwyn, for one, so even beyond being human, her specific brand of magic doesn't fit within the setting. Aside from that, she's a LOT more of an urban person than any of the other walkers, even counting Jace. Lorwyn, being so rural, means she has an even harder time fitting in. Seriously, can you imagine her roughing it?
But I am admittedly biased so we can do interesting things with Ashiok here.

For the record, Lorwyn was once described as "spark blind" by the creative team. They've no associations with the spark or walkers, so I'm an advocate of no native walkers from Lorwyn.

We could have him tracking Chandra in an early start to Purifying Fire. Leave it intentionally vague to start and then have him show up on Kephalai.

Since this is the first time we are being introduced to planeswalkers, is it a good idea to have a 2 color one? What was kinda cool about the design of the originals was they had abilities that were all very basic for their colors. Is there a way Ashiok could be mono black?

Ability wise, fairly easily. Lot of design space just playing with the nightmare/fear/terror aspects.

Ashiok could be mono-Black without issues, I think. In fact, Ahsiok probably makes more sense as a discard-based mono-Black planeswalker than Liliana. Tightening the mechanical identity for each planeswalker isn't exactly the point of this exercise, but it's worth considering (Jace shouldn't get everything that's Blue. For example.)



Fair enough. Although I guess she could be convinced to rough it if the rewards are high enough.

One thing to note here is that this makes Agents of Artifice the first time we see Liliana. I don't think that's a terrible thing, but she probably needs to show on the cards before Innistrad. She could be on Grixis, or the core sets could be used to introduce new story elements.



I guess that would work. Too bad there isn't something completely horrible going on Lorwyn that would distract him. (I like the idea of Gideon constantly getting distracted.)

One thing that's a bit less important but might be fun to thin about: Which moments should be the "five pivotal moments" that get their own card or each set? Or is this something we introduce a bit later? (Later might be better, because the focus isn't yet on the planeswalkers here.) I do think we should probably have some cards featuring the planeswalkers, but those could be as simple as "Jace makes himself appear as an Elf" or something. (Maybe we should hit up YMTC for this?)

We don't have to introduce all the starting five in lorwyn. I think if you introduced three in Lorywn and the other two in Alara it would work well and wouldn't make too much of a split. I mean, it would solve the entire white/black Planeswalker on Lorwyn conundrum.

I feel like having a few Key cards in Lorwyn would be fine, maybe something about Planeswalkers meeting each other?

If you don't have a planeswalker for every color in the first block (hell, even not having them in the first set...) you'll anger quite a few fans. I think it's more elegant to have five at once too.

Is it beyond the realm of possibility for Venser to be hanging out on Lorwyn as our white representative? Yes, as a human he'd be out of place, but I can see him visiting the faeries to maybe find some sort of viable alternative to his Blinkmoth Serum habit. Maybe some magic Fae drug?

I'd rather we just bury that dumb plot point that didn't exist until they needed it.
They serum wasn't even something that could have existed anyways according to the recipe given.

the key cards are meant to be story moments, something the Walkers wouldn't have had any part in during Lorwyn.

Personally, I feel like waiting would be better for doing that. For Lorwyn, we should probably ax one of the extra legends to fit the Colfenor in. Most of the legends were represented, but there were a couple missing.

Re: Liliana in grixis
I'd planned to pitch that anyways tbh.

What if we just swapped Lorwyn and Time Spiral?
Lorwyn actually has a lot in common with the planeshopping blocks before Time Spiral in that it is extremely self-contained and no planeswalkers are involved. The block could still be exactly the same (minus the five PW cards - more room for Colfenor? ) and so could the story (except it would be timerifts messing with the Aurora instead of the Mending itself). I think no matter how much we bend over backwards to integrate planeswalkers into Lorwyn, it just doesn't feel like the right block to start any of their stories, and the constraints of the setting are enormous. I can easily see the players in the alternate universe of our thought experiment looking back at Lorwyn a few years later and being like "Boy, Lorwyn was such a terrible start for the post-Mending storyline, no wonder everything is a mess now!". If we just swapped Lorwyn and Time Spiral, we'd automatically solve all problems Lorwyn would cause us and we'd have it out of the way to do something tailored to our neowalkers after Time Spiral instead. Which I think could well be the additional Kephalai block I proposed. I think the experience of having the novels, webcomics and the block after Time Spiral all be tied together while very organically introducing an archetypical planeswalker for each colour would have been amazing had it actually happened. Or we could just do Alara after Time Spiral and introduce the monocoloured 'walkers in a Core Set. Having Time Spiral be released a bit later would also give us bonus points for 'realism' because it would make it more credible that the comics and novels would have been ready in time after the Mending. The same would apply for the Planeswalker card type if we decided to go with Azure's idea of introducing it in Time Spiral (Oldwalkers plus Venser).

If everyone else is fine with just doing Lorwyn after Time Spiral and introducing the planeswalkers there, I'll accept that and just go with the flow of course. I just think trying to work Lorwyn into this between Future Sight and Alara feels like a dead end and doesn't really solve the narrative problems the post-Mending era started with.

I think putting time spiral after lorwyn would be a good idea

I think we've already moved beyond that stage of the conversation.

I mean I feel like we kinda have to or else we're going to be going around in circles indefinitely.

Agreed. At this point we should just accept Lorwyn as a given. It's not perfect, but switching the place of two blocks is (for me at least) too much of a change and so is creating an entire new block. I'm not a huge fan of Lorwyn for this (it's indeed not an awesome start for the planeswalkers), but what we've got right now is relatively solid despite that. I'd rather move the discussion forward to Alara than spend tons of time trying to fit the planeswalkers in FS (I think Barinellos made good points against that) or trying to give a plane we don't now a lot about a place. Say we put Kephalai in there, and the block after Shadows over Innistrad ends up being Kephalai. That would mean doing this whole thing over again. Lorwyn isn't great, but it's workable and I think we've got a decent start. Even if it's not perfect.

We've got Gideon tracking down Chandra, maybe seeing the dangers of conformity in the Kithkin.
We've got Jace spending time on Lorwyn, trying to check out some mystery or another, making friends with a faerie, etc.
We've got Ashiok seeking out new nightmares and terrorizing the dreams of the peaceful denizens of Lorwyn.
We've got Chandra hanging out with the Flamekin, having fun, doing cool firemagic.
We've got Nissa chilling with the Elves, learning to be even more racist.

That seems like a decent setup for introducing the characters. I think it's okay if we're not kicking off some huge character arc right of the bat. We've got AoA and The Purifying Fire coming up pretty soon and we've got the webcomics to hint at the upcoming Zendikar plot. Plus, we've already posted a story for each of the characters. If those stories are decent, people will be plenty excited to see the characters on the cards as it is.