Yes, there is. TPF says there was a war a few years ago in which Chandra's homecountry was invaded and her now non-existent brother killed. None of this made it into Magic Origins, so the entire political situation on Kaladesh is a retcon. Besides, TPF also says that fire magic was explicitly forbidden while Origins implied that magical talent in general is rather rare on Kaladesh, so that doesn't really line up.

That said, even if we just focus on Chandra's story, that one is full of retcons and I'm sure the block's story will be strongly tied to those.

You misunderstand slightly. Everything we know about Kaladesh is rooted to chandra's story. Literally everything we would have had is tied to that, so by extension, chandra's story still counts things like what you said.

There's literally nothing outside Chandra for Kaladesh. It would be different if we'd had other stories, then you could say there were more retcons, but don't pretend the situation is worse than it is.

Maybe we have a different understanding of what we count as part of Chandra's story then. The point I was trying to make is that the Kaladesh we saw in Origins isn't the same plane as the homeworld of Chandra's she tells Gideon about in TPF. The worldbuilding as such just doesn't line up.

The worldbuilding was barely there though. It's not like there was an abundance of details there.
Yes, the details don't match up very well, but let's not blow it out of proportion either.

It's not like the worlds we saw would have been terribly interesting to start with.

Also, traumatized young Chandra may not have grown into the most reliable narrator later in life. I mean, some things are clearly off, like her missing brother, but she may have made other parts up as a coping mechanism and it's not like Gideon would have had the correct info to call her on it.

But at the same time, Wizards doesn't exactly have a strong track record of continuity. If you've gotten socks for your birthday every year for the last ten years, I think it's fair to expect socks this year, too.

True, but comparing Kaladesh and the established details to your birthday is a bit of a lame comparison. TPF only put in enough detail about to count as something like Arbor Day or Lief Eriksson Day.
All I'm saying is that people need to keep perspective. This isn't like were coming back to an established world, were going to a world that was mentioned in passing with barely any facts.

Be mad about chandra's retcons all day, those are worth your ire, but Kaladesh not matching three sentences in a book is NOT worth being upset.

Well, and I'm not. What I'm upset about is the pattern of behavior it represents. It's akin to the straw that broke the camel's back. In and of itself, yes, it's pretty inoffensive. Combined with everything else, it's just one more example that they don't care about what's been established, regardless of how small or large. It reminds me of why it's not worth it to get invested in anything they produce, because the odds are, in five years, they'll retcon Kaladesh again to something different.

You say it's not worth getting upset about, and you're undoubtedly right. But frankly, Wizards has not earned enough of my good will to overlook a "minor" retcon.

Pft, the fact that THIS is what pushed you over isn't really worth mentioning.
If you're going to talk about retcons, let's go back to Mirrodin and ravnica, but strangely, folks just sweep those far larger retcons under the rug.

The simple fact of the matter is that we've had something like 3 creative teams in the past 10 years. None of them planned anything more than 3 years out. The most recent team, headed by Jenna, who everyone was singing their praise to several years ago, has a new idea and marketing is breathing down their necks to do some things. They're trying to figure out what they even can do right now.

That's not an endorsement of the long strain of retcons we've had, but after Brady left, the department lost basically everything they needed to keep this stuff straight.

Again, THIS didn't push me over any kind of a ledge, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to ignore it. If anything pushed me over, it was Tarkir. Yes, I'm pissed about Mirrodin. I'm pissed about Ravnica. I'm pissed about Zendikar and the Gatewatch. I'm pissed about the **** Elder Dragons. But don't tell me I can't be upset about something minor just because they've done worse things. That's like saying you shouldn't be upset that someone slapped you yesterday because someone took a shot at you a couple of years ago.

But again, to put this in perspective, I don't particularly care about Kaladesh. At all. I don't care about the segments in The Purifying Fire, I don't care about the stuff from Origins, and I don't care what they do with it this year. That's not the point. The point is that I cannot respect an IP that seems to take such a cavalier attitude toward its own continuity, regardless of the circumstances that created that attitude.

Hey, I'm not saying you can't be upset, but certain members of the vorthos community at large are treating these matters the same as major retcons and it's creating an environment that's putting people on edge.

Or maybe Gideon had enough skeletons in his cupboard himself to not call other people out on their retconned origin stories...

I'm not trying to blow things out of proportion, and it's not three sentences in a book being contradicted alone that makes me angry, I'm just saying the next block won't take us into retcon-free territory either, both in terms of worldbuilding and actual Chandra-related story details. For instance, based on what we saw in Magic Origins, I'm almost prepared to bet that Chandra's very dead conservative peasant mum from TPF will turn into a not-so-dead aether smuggling rebel mum and step out of the shadows to lead the eponymous Aether Revolt in the upcoming block. Or something equivalent to that. And it's not like the glimpse of Chandra's homeplane in the novel was weirdly specific and hard to integrate into a particular setting. The fact that it isn't a previously established plane we've seen on cards before is exactly the point; if Creative couldn't even work with that tiny shred of info without retconning it, then they just did a really bad job there. Nowhere in TPF does it say Chandra's homeplane can't be Clockpunk India, so taking what little info there was and building a cool plane around it would have been perfectly possible. Since the second set of Kaladesh block is going to be about a revolt anyway, I don't get why they couldn't at least keep the foreign invaders in there and have the conflict be about their occupation. And let's face it, taking exactly the aspects from the novels they were going to retcon (aka the Origin Five's origin stories) and shining a huuuge spotlight on those retcons by dedicating an entire core set (aka Magic Origins) to them wasn't exactly the smartest move if they want storyline savvy people to not be angry.

It is really exactly as Raven says. It's not just about some stuff about Chandra's homeplane, it's about the entirety of Magic Origins plus what they did with Tarkir block plus the myriad of smaller Eldrazi arc related retcons plus the generally unsatisfying story of BFZ and OGW, and all of that in a row. That stuff really ate up most of my good will. I've been playing Magic for about 13-15 years now, I've been following the storyline for almost as long, and it was the Vorthos aspect of the game that caught my attention in the first place. In all those years, the trias of Tarkir-Origins-BFZ was the first time ever that being a Vorthos and storyline fan genuinely diminished my enjoyment of the game instead of enhancing it. I just can't identify with what they're doing anymore. Sure, SOI is absolutely amazing in so many mind blowing ways, but apparently everything's going to be back in disappointment mode after that.

As to Ravnica and Mirrodin, well. I see the return of the Guilds more as a somewhat inelegant in-universe change rather than a retcon, and I can see why they weren't going to do Return to Ravnica without the Guilds. It just isn't anywhere on the same level as the pointless and unwarranted retcons in Magic Origins. Mirrodin being repopulated might be one hell of a retcon, but - and I remember us having had that discussion before - it's just more in line with what I expected the ending of Fifth Dawn to be like. Everyone vanishing because of the soultraps being destroyed never made sense to me in the first place, and Scars of Mirrodin fixed the exact thing that always confused me. Besides, with all the issues Mirrodin has always had in terms of timeline, worldbuilding, story-card-integration etc. I don't really hold it to very high standards storywise.

Here's the thing, most of what's being said is not things I disagree with, but I'm genuinely sick of seeing every conversation come back to origins. We've already discussed that we had different problems with what they chose to do, but I really don't want to spend the next six months seeing Kaladesh get held up as some unsalvagable thing. It's toxic and I'm trying to see the positive of what we're getting in terms of a set considering we've already had the characters butchered.

If we're going to be salty about chandra's family getting the hatchet job, then yeah, I'll agree. I'm seriously hoping Pia stays the **** dead, but yeah, she's probably going to be leading the charge here. But at the same time, maybe she won't and it's too early to have to deal with it getting said over and over with bitterness. It isn't conducive to a good environment.

And I've been pissed about things since scars and ravnica, so while I don't agree with the retcons they made, I've been angry with them for a lot longer. If we're going to be cavalier in forgiving them for those, then there's not much difference in just seeing where they go with what we have left. I'm not saying forgive, I'm not saying forget.

I'm saying let's wait. We know nothing about Kaladesh.
I'm honestly more irritated that they shoehorned the gatewatch in again.

To be fair, I didn't bring up Kaladesh to be salty about specific details or speculative potential issues, I just mentioned we already know the next block won't be free of retcons. I agree we don't know much about what they're going to do, but we all know they're going to build on the version from Magic Origins rather than The Purifying Fire. That's just a given at this point.

And don't get me wrong, it's not like I wasn't pissed about some stuff here and there earlier (e.g. the Guilds coming back, Karn's heartstone leaking oil, Jace becoming the Living Guildpact or, hell, the Mending!), but at least all of the older blocks gave me enough cool and exciting things to outweigh the negative aspects and enjoy them as a whole, and they gave me some time to breathe in between the annoying parts. Nowadays, with all those bummers in a row, it just feels like Magic's storyline is in a constant crisis without a chance of recovering.

As to the Gatewatch being there, that's actually a thing where we might want to wait and see, too. I mean, the blurb for the Innistrad artbook claimed the Gatewatch would be involved, and I was basically losing my **** when I read that and thought they'd ruin everything and then it turned out it was only one member of the Gatewatch, so...

I'm willing to see if the origins changes for Chandra were worth it when we get to Kaladesh. After all, shadows isn't exactly free of issues itself, but the general buzz about it is good, even with the Eldrazi being hamtentacledly forced in. I know the past year has been rough. Tarkir rocked us and we got followed up with origins and battle. It's been a weak show, but we've been in a place like this before. After Apocalypse, things were awful. We survived though, we just have to keep looking for the good because at the end if the day, we obviously care, we care a lot.

That's why this has all been so hard on us.

@Karn's heartstone: that's one thing that I genuinely refuse to accept. I'm not even mad anymore, it just doesn't make any sense. It literally doesn't work.

Well said.

I know, right? Add that to the fact they temporarily forgot the thing is inside his head.

Come to think of it, Lorwyn was a pretty horrid time too following the mending.
We can just hope the previous trend pulls together and stuff starts to settle out again.

Karn just feels like a perfect example of "someone didn't do enough research".

I can't wait until they handwave research off like how they did doing Maps... "Don't have time to do it, we focus on Walkers you know..."

That was a dramabomb.

Rough maps seem like they could be super easy to do- just say they are rough maps. Maybe Tamiyo cobbled it together from verbal descriptions and glances at actual maps, maybe its from a society without accurate maps, maybe it was just drawn by a man giving quick instructions. Then the only detail to mess up is compass directions from one large area to another. And what areas touch what roads and rivers. Even then you've got a ton of leeway.