To be clear, I don't have any problem with art that's sexy. But what I think is super important is that art reflects that "sexy" can mean many, many different things -- it doesn't just mean pin-up.

To try to put things differently, I guess I would try to draw a distinction between "sexy," and "sexualized." I don't think they're the same thing, and I'm a fan of the former, but not of the latter.

To try to parse the difference, I guess I'd draw on a comment that Karla Ortiz made at a panel at Spectrum couple years back. It was a discussion about what it's like for female artists working in fantasy art, and someone asked a question about how she felt about drawing sexy female characters. And her answer -- which I thought was great -- was basically: "I don't have any problem drawing sexy characters -- I just want it to make sense for the character. I don't want to draw a paladin in fishnets and a chainmail bikini. So the question I try to ask myself, when I'm doing an illustration is, 'can I imagine this woman getting out of bed in the morning, and going to her closet, and actually choosing to wear this outfit?' Because, if the answer is 'no,' then that's probably a sign that something's wrong. But, if I can imagine her getting dressed, and standing in front of the mirror, and saying, '**** yeah, I look badass,' then that's a sign that I'm getting her right."

And I felt like that captured the distinction between "sexy" and "sexualized" pretty well.

I want to say something controversial so how about, fat people shouldnt be represemted positively often in media because it makes peolle beleive its ok to be unhealthy. Just something to think about.

I'm gonna try to frame this in a way that doesn't come across as harsh, but I'm not sure I'll succeed.

That sort of thing is the least of my worries. What is considered fat nowadays (especially in media and fiction) is mostly BS. To go back to the example of my brother: no matter how active he was or how much he dieted, he always was "fat." Men in my family easily build muscle and he was no exception. But even when he was watching his food and doing semi-professional circus acts, those muscles would be hidden under a layer of fat. In short, he was doing everything you're supposed to do to be healthy, and still looked fat.

BMI is somewhat of a rubbish measurement, but the sort of BMI that gets portrayed as fat in media is still a very long way from dangerously obese. The BMI that gets portrayed as "normal" is probably more dangerous to aspire to. The impact of consistently portraying very thin people as normal is significantly larger, for both physical and mental health than portraying fat or chubby people would be.

The idea that fat people are inherently unhealthy or that portraying fat people as competent or desirable is somehow a bad thing is actually pretty abhorrent to me and I'm going to stop talking about it now. I just want to make it very clear that I completely disagree with what you wrote and I consider that attitude to contribute more to unhealthy situations than any sort of portrayal in fiction could be.

This "argument" has been bulldozed so many times that it's just petty at this point.

Many types of characters that are muscular but stocky (like the aforementioned Waller, and now Maui's representation in Moana) are also branded as "fat pandering", rendering this sort of vitriol inane.

When i say fat i mean really fat, obese and gross. Im talking typical american fat. I dont actually believe what I said, i just felt like this discussion needs something more than 18 peoole agreeing that sexualization is bad.

I disagree that sexualization is bad.

It's a large part of the equation in terms of marketing, which is a driving factor in how common something is.

It's a large part of marketing because game companies penned their audience straight men who are constantly horny, but the problem is that its been demonstrated a large part of those who game don't like that. Marketing could be used as a reason to show more body types as well.

On the topic of reclaiming sexuality: I'm also perfectly ok with people reclaiming their sexuality, but a man making art of a women with an unattainable body is not "reclaiming" a women's sexual identity. Making a character that fits your's, or a large crowds sexual desires and the claiming that its ok because "she feels empowered by it" doesn't actually make it empowering.

I see what your saying about people being shamed for embracing their "sexyness", but that comes from the same sexist source that objectifies these women in the first place.

You can make art to pander to a sexual fetish, theres nothing wrong with that. Except the sex part. Huehue

Ok, and? What does that have to do with the presence and marketability of sexualized men compared to sexualized women?

I don't think you can make art that doesn't pander to a sexual fetish. I'm sure there's a guy out there that gets off to pseudo-intellectual minimalistic artistic expressions like a white canvas or an empty frame.

Truth. Rule 34 states that if it exists there is porn of it. Even if it's a white **** canvas.

Ok, and? What does that have to do with the presence and marketability of sexualized men compared to sexualized women?[/spoiler]

OOPS read some stuff wrong sorry

I have to say, I never expected anything good to come out of this discussion. I wasn't expecting OL and Barinellos to come out of nowhere with a sucker punch of thoughtful, well-considered opinion pieces. So props to you two for that.

- ORLY? Consider the fact that male gamers to this day basically throw hissy fits over men being too attractive.

- That's quite dishonest. People are aroused by everything, but that doesn't mean that there is isn't a specific creator intent.

Are they? I mean, I believe you, but I haven't seen it myself. Maybe the decision to stay away from gaming forums was a good one.

But really, what recent video game character is deemed to attractive? The only attractive male character recently is McCree and that 90% because of the way he says "I feel like a man possessed," when damage boosted. (Okay, I may be biased about this.)

There's the Raiden incident in MGS, for example, where they eventually had to buff him up.

Oh really what? What does your response have to do with anything?

That was, in fact, a joke.
Although I don't really know what you're going for here.

Is this "to this day" example talking about a 15 year old video game title?
Genuine question, because I can't really find much of anything about it.

https://gamerant.com/final-fantasy-costume-sexy/ to be fair, the connundrum was a while ago, but the game did just come out

You said the sexualisation of men is equally as prevalent and profitable. I'm disputing that.



Just saying "everyone gets horny at everything so it's not an issue" doesn't really hold up.



It's a particularly notable event.

There are many others examples in regards to japanese video games, as well as general vitriol towards male romantic interests.

A topical example would be the venomous comments against the male protagonist basic design in Pokemon X/Y and Sun/Moon, which are deemed too "girly".

I think once you get to this level, I'd suggest that you're giving a very vocal minority an unreasonably large soap-box

No, that's fine, I just didn't get anywhere by googling "mgs raiden controversy" or "raiden redesign" or anything to that effect.

No, I haven't, nor do I hold that opinion. I've stated that sexualization of men and women are not comparable.

I'm pretty sure the 'issue' as outlined in Lily's post is just that she thinks sex is icky, which is why your defense of all of this just seems rather odd to me.

Is that topical when discussing sexualization of men?
Are you sure you just didn't want to complain about gamers?