No. J Robert King, however... (Nothing against his good stuff but TSTTBTSNBN* exists, and was a low not seen again until QFK if even then)

I totally get what you're saying with the similarities to the Satanic Panic/MIR-ONS Demon-removal. Today's Twittermob and Tumblr-grounded enforcers of the politically correct are as Yesterday's Unreasonably Concerned Parents I guess.

EDIT: You know what, actually? I'm going to say it: They're worse. They're worse for two reasons. The first is that at least parents that got swept up in the Satanic Panic responses legitimatley didn't understand. To an outsider, I guess when someone lays down The Wretched then proceeds to next turn Sacrifice it to "Summon the Lord of the Pit" which then gets Unholy Strength, or a Breeding Pit so you can constantly sacrifice... sounds like 'Thralls'... to the big demon? It looks a little creepy. Like "maybe I don't want my kid playing this creepy game" creepy. They did a lot of damage to the creative process but they did it out of ignorance and an earnest concern for the mental health and well-being of a person it is their job to guard. There were, of course, the "Ban it all" loons but that's not who WotC was reacting to, I don't think, since that's a tiny group. The folks they're reacting to now are people who should know better. People who comment on the game from an inside point of view, who take the time to follow the storyline and analyze the pretty art and presumably purchase cards for themselves now and again. People who at least make a pretense of education and understanding of the subject matter they're talking about and I feel more often than not are making a choice to be beyond thin skinned. And many, perhaps most, don't even fight their fight for anything less abstract than their preferred philosophical model of modern humanity saying that something is in error. I have far, far more sympathy for "My child is" than "Someone might" as a motivation. And you know, that's another thing... I refuse to believe that art is 'wrong. And yeah you could say that Magic: the Gathering is a commercial game with commercial illustrations and a storyline that maybe only exists to hook in a few extra people like the cartoon series attached to your favorite brand of dolls/action figures from the '80s and so it should be treated as a product and not on the same level as art that isn't selling toys, but when Magic's story has been allowed to be good, when the kind of writers and worldbuilders they get on the case have been cut loose and just created? They've made amazing things. They've made art if you're willing to apply the word to anything bought and sold. Which I am. I'm more willing to consider a good, intellectually honest novel, or a gorgeous illustration, art than I am some of the more avant-garde pieces of paint-on-material that have come out of the last century. This is a tangent, but some people have claimed that the camera made visual art a 'solved' medium, because up until then artistry was about properly expressing what you see, and now people are straining with the tools of that craft to convey something more than the perfect realism that is now allowed to us and failing. And maybe they're right. It would explain a lot about Modern Art. But in Fantasy Illustration you find the unsolved, as the artist has to give shape and image to something that cannot be seen, cannot be photographed, moving impossible vistas of imagination into the world of reality where they can be shared with others. And we deride that when it was done on commission, when we don't think twice about where Donatello or DaVinci were getting their money. Anyway, the internet-based shame-mob: they have every reason to understand what I've been saying here, every reason to know that forbidding elements because you don't even necessarily find them unpleasant but think that you should find them unpleasant is going to hurt...

I guess what I'm saying is that WotC needs to hire some manatees**.



*The Sequel To The Book That Shall Not Be Named. The one for the third set in the Onslaught Block.
**Manatees are very ethical writers, either everything is OK to write about or nothing is. They're also the only mammals that are completely unmoved by terrorist threats. If you don't know where this joke comes from...

Speaking of which, any thoughts on that MTGHeadQuarters drama? Haven’t seen any threads about it on NGA and I wasn’t sure where (if at all) something like that belongs.

Don’t count on it

Heh, I knew someone would bring that up before long . But it's as you say, it was considered a low point by most even then. The fact that I can't have been older than 13 when I read those books and actually found Karona's sidekicks funny probably just strengthens my point about the target demographic of infantile humour. Between that and everything else, you can just tell the stories have become elaborate prose commercials for the cards more than anything else.

Given that they can't even keep the characters' personality and relationship with each other consistent after Magic Origins, I kinda doubt it. I mean, first we had Jace not understanding Nissa and finding her worldview esoteric, then he entered her mind and found that it was beautiful and all made sense, now we're back to the old relationship again. BFZ made it look like Nissa had the hots for Gideon, but now that's all gone and there's this weird thing between her and Chandra, who, as Barinellos pointed out, should be closest to Gideon...

Edit: Also, this.

@Chandra's pants and Jeff Grubb:
Yes, I can very easily imagine that.
It isn't the author and their quality, it's tone of the narrative. What I can't imagine is someone like Jhoira or Urza falling over their pants.

But to be clear, while there were many epics in magic's past, let us not forget the horrendous things like Mirrodin or Otaria. Chandra falling over her pants is high intellectualism compared to something as egregious as Sash & Waistcoat.

These are all very fair points, but I feel like the tone of 'Homesick' was completely over the top and the things I mentioned just reinforced the feeling that most of the characters in it were parodies of themselves. Which is about the last thing you want to happen when you already changed who those characters are on a very fundamental level by retconning pretty much everything about them. Ultimately, I can always forgive a lousy story as long as it's nothing more or less than that. I can forgive the goofy humour in a single story, I can even forgive the contrived plot, the bad writing or the fact that the entire Gatewatch is hanging out on Ravnica waiting for something to happen (including Nissa, who really doesn't want to be there). But it all adds to the impression that they don't take their own characters and "storyline" seriously anymore, and that's not even talking about the fact that they created another huge continuity paradox in that story (the TPF thing I mentioned). The goofy and awkward things happening in that story are about characterisation, and characterisation can be hard to separate from continuity, especially in a story that also erased a considerable chunk of Gideon and Chandra's shared history.

Edit: I guess you could say the awkwardness of most of the things Chandra did didn't make her feel like a real person (at least not a real person her age), hence the parody thing. You could even defend Sash and Waistcoat by saying not being real people was their entire point.

Except that the data they're getting is telling them exactly the opposite:
(Source; emphasis mine.)

There's another source that says that the Wednesday story column is now the most popular feature, but my Google-fu was weak.

I don't think they could give us a clearer signal that the story of Magic is the story of the Gatewatch, for the foreseeable future. There might come a time when players tire of seeing these characters all the time. That time is not now. So if you're not down with all Gatewatch all the time, you're in for a rough couple of years.

As a side note, I've recently started rereading the entire post-Origins story from the beginning. This is entirely false. The Nissa we see in Battle is exactly the same Nissa we saw in Teeth and "Nissa, Worldwaker". (They even include that last story in the Prologue to Battle for Zendikar story set despite it being a year older than all the other stories in the set.) All of the differences are completely ascribable to her tremendous remorse over being directly and personally responsible for the deaths of millions of Zendikari.

Maro has the weirdest notion of what "no continuity" means...

Speak for yourself. Also, MaRo could be lying through his teeth for all you know. That data which they are allegedly getting is not public so it might as well not exist for all intents and purposes for us as outside observers.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think we all tend to generalize, as well as externalize our opinions. I certainly admit that I think most people dislike the oppressive, incipit focus on the Gatewatch because that's how I feel. I have no evidence for this beyond what I see around here, which is, admittedly, a small sample size.

But I have very serious doubts as to the metrics WotC uses to gauge these responses. I presume they mostly go off of the sales for any given set, which has FAR too many variables to be a useful metric. Kamigawa didn't sell well compared with other sets and blocks near it, so they sort of "decided" it was a flavor flop. Same with Homelands years earlier. Meanwhile, Mirrodin sold like crazy (likely because the cards were, in general, overpowered) and so we get a return there, while sets that most Vorthos I speak to liked infinitely better may never be seen again.

And if that IS the primary metric they use, it makes me even more nervous about the Gatewatch, because I expect Kaladesh to sell well, because of the power of the cards I've seen so far and the unique worldbuilding that's gone into it. But I fully expect WotC to tout it as a success of the Gatewatch, because they were there.

Are they wrong? I have no idea. For me, certainly. Speaking only for myself, I would in fact be more likely to buy cards from a set that has nothing to do with the Gatewatch, because I dislike the Gatewatch. But Wizards wouldn't get that message anyway, because plenty of competitive players, many of whom couldn't care less about Chandra's backstory, will buy the cards anyway.

It just makes me wonder where they get their information. Again, I'm not saying they're wrong and I'm right, because I certainly don't have access to in-depth market research. It just makes me wonder.

I'll come here as someone who has, for the most part, been just fine with the Gatewatch. I feel that there have been a lot of bad issues with them over the course of their story, but I do like that it exists. For me, I have always enjoyed heroic teamups (comics, movies, fanfic, whatever), so I was immediately in favor of the idea. I also tend to enjoy more heroic tone in my stories, which seems to be what they're going for with the Gatewatch.

All that said, there are definitely some issues that make me roll my eyes. I was really hoping for Kaladesh to be focused on only a few of the members, but it appears that they're all going to show up by the end. I was assuming that might be possible, I had written a post a while ago essentially saying that Kaladesh was going to be the first story in the new status quo, which was established at the end of SoI, and therefore may involve the whole team (comparing it to the episode 'the Ticket Master' from MLP:FiM). However, seeing that the next set is Bolas-focused, it's likely the whole team gets involved there. That is concerning to me that the team may start being fully involved as a whole with every story going forward. That, in my opinion, would be a mistake, since that is how overexposure happens. (While a lot of people here are already calling over-exposure, I feel that it hasn't happened yet in the wider audience. A year from now is another matter)

All that being said, I'm not going to say that the current story is better or worse than what's come before. I can say it is much more enjoyable for me, but it's also clear that it's not a taste shared by many here. From my perspective, the humor has been effective more often than not, and the tone of the story has generally been what's required (It was fairly confusing and weird during SoI, more crazy and insane in EMN, and then more lighthearted and emotional in KLD).

One last question I have. From all I can remember, with the exception of AoA and maybe Innistrad, I feel like this forum has really hated the direction of the story ever since Time Spiral. While I'm sure tastes vary (we're not a hivemind after all), when you complain about the story, what are you comparing it to? Is there a particular time that the story was legitimately good that you want to return to, or are you just hoping for something better than anything you've gotten in recent history? If it's the latter, do you think the current story is at least better than, say RtR or Scars, or is this just as bad or worse than some of the recent lows?

I think you're equating surface details as the cause for success, but it's not. They've changed the way in which they tell the story, but that has much more to do with dedication and focus than details. You're getting entirely the wrong message for WHY the shift was successful.

I can assure you, their market data showed that people got sick of seeing the Weatherlight and that was what started the planar rotation and smaller casts in the first place. However, those stories were no more successful than the weatherlight because they were still delivering the story as a means for the cards, as basically an afterthought.

They've made changes now, and are as committed to the story and highlighting it as the cards, which has generated interest by exposure.


Oh good god no. She's an absolutely different character now than in Teeth. In teeth, her entire personality was tied into how sure of herself she was and that confidence never faltered, centered in her surety of her heritage.

Now? She's a meek, dependent character who doesn't exist on her own. During Battle, she was a neurotic nonfunctional mess without Ashaya. Except those inexplicable times she apparently tapped into something dark? That was never explained, despite happening 3 times... Anyways, without Ashaya, she's centered her need for connection onto the watch.

Edit: The problem as it is, is that with Origins in place, there is a new throughline where her character in Teeth no longer belongs since Origins established a new character status quo that was followed through with Battle. Worldwaker, and this is important, is compatible with both versions of her character, but the original Nissa, as opposed to the origins-al Nissa, are very different people to start as, even if Worldwaker works for both. And I think we'd have seen a different character in Battle if she'd not had her origin overwritten.


Now, in conclusion, let me state, I'm fine with the Watch existing. Except the name, which is stupid, but the problem I have is that we have EVERY character showing up for these events. It weakens them individually as a whole because it looks like they can't do anything on their own. The Eldrazi arc? I'll give you that, it called for them, but Aether Revolt? Chandra is getting damseled. WITH Nissa already there.

This is a woman who escaped several prisons before.

Seems like dumb drama tbh fam. Really dumb when I've never even seen anyone of those tumbr types in the real world.

I think it's been as mixed a result as ever really. I'm not critical of the direction as much as the decisions made in a vacuum. Lorwyn was kinda awful, but Alara was a great experience, even if the book was... flawed. AoA and TPF were great, but ToM was, well, you know my opinion on it. The rest of it has been a rollercoaster, but that was true of the premending times as well. (that said, there were darker times than others. Odyssey through Fifth Dawn was a daaaaark time)

As to the current story, in terms of plotbeats, it's better than RtR. But the cast is too large, or rather, not narratively diverse enough. Alara was spread too thin, but it had variety at least. There are no words for how bad Scars is. Godsend, I think, had the right mix of relevant characters.

Speaking for myself, the single biggest reason I've found Magic's story, well, actively infuriating for most of the time I've been following it, it that there was never any continuity of exactly the kind he is talking about: no through-line connecting any of the events or stories or characters or worlds together. It was always just running up one blind alley after another, where everything hung in limbo and nothing ever got resolved. I am quite happy that those awful days are behind us.

When was the story good?
Depends on what you mean by "good". I unashamedly love the Armada Comics era even though they have the scale baggage of old Planeswalkers and the overall lunacy you tend to find in comics, particularly 90's comics. They aren't necessarily powerful stories the same way as others, but they've stuck with me, and I cannot tell you how excited I was to finally, after all these years, get an outline for the Planeswalker War and the grand conclusion that never came. They told a story that was cosmic in scope with characters who were larger than life but still managed to be intricate. I feel like they had really limited restrictions on them too, because they created some of the weirdest beautiful stuff in this multiverse. They were strange, they were epic, and they were fun and felt unburdened by the Corporate angle that the more I think about it is quite possibly what's sucking the soul out of the latest creations from a team with people we know can be reasonable and are talented like Ethan. I think this is the era I'd most like to 'return' to since I think it's something that Uncharted Realms (or as it's now called thanks to SEM, Magic Story) could really do well.

Then there is the legitimately good stuff: The Artifacts Cycle and Ice Age cycle are the highest points. The Brothers' War in particular... I can't praise that book enough. I read primarily off the Hugos now and Brothers' War has all the depth and complexity of anything I've found there, it's really top notch. You go down from there but Planeswalker, The Thran, The Gathering Dark, Ice Age, The Shattered Alliance -- they're all legit. Timestreams and Bloodlines are also straight up good, along with the Legends cycles and more recently the Kamigawa cycle, AoA, and TPF. Nemesis is a standout in the Weatherlight Saga (which was OK overall but for the most part weakened as it went on with a particular low at Prophecy). So M:tG Can inspire GOOD novels.

And then there's good worldbuilding, creating beautifully nuanced settings that I'd like to see more of. Homelands is the cream of the crop, but Fallen Empires was also really well done. Only we haven't really lost this. Kamigawa was great, Innistrad was really strong, the setup for the War of the Praetors on New Phyrexia was strong, and Khans of Tarkir was freeking gorgeous until they went and dragonized it. I feel like Kaladesh COULD be yet another worldbuilding hit, it's got so much going for it, if they just broke out of the sympathy dissonance they've created thusfar. It's just unfortunate that their worldbuilding is covered up by focusing on a MASSIVE cast of characters that aren't of that world. This would be so much better if it were just Chandra's return home and oncoming conflict with Head Judge Tezzeret. There would still be the Planeswalker Story, rather than the distraction of all the Gatewatch having to show.

Which I think answers must of the rest of the question. I want to care again. Oddly I think the retcons take that from me more than repeatedly slaughtering the cast... I think there are people who care, and can tell a good story, but that their hands are being tied and there's only so far "restrictions breed creativity" can go.

Khans would've been great if the dragons were broken and made subservient. An inverted Jund. It would also fit better, in terms of narrative, with Sarkhan's story.

I liked the Shadowmage comics. They were pretty good. I still reread them to this day.

As someone who waited yeeeeears for the Eldrai to become relevant again, I'll agree to that. But there were throughlines, albeit more scattershot. And I won't really defend how unconnected things felt either.

But I really do think not every block needs to follow off the heels of each other. I'm actively dreading Amonkhet to see how Kaladesh awkwardly fumbles into it. Because I really don't want the Gatewatch to face Bolas. Or more, I want Bolas to just wreck them if they do show up. But what we've seen so far doesn't make me feel like they can lose to anything. The Eldrazi getting rolled over in the first outing didn't feel earned, so now it doesn't feel like they are in any danger.

I am reporting Maro's report that interest and involvement in the story is higher than its ever been and that one of the aspects they believe is responsible for that success is the focus on a continuous cast of main characters. Who is that main cast supposed to be if not the Gatewatch?

There is room for literally decades of character business between her origin story and the Nissa we encountered in Teeth. (And those "inexplicable" moments seemed perfectly clear to me as illustrations of her now-suppressed attraction to black mana.)

I'd hazard a central cast is much lower than those estimates claim. The fact is, they're integrating and promoting the story with far more effort and zeal than they have in years. And that all started with Theros, not the Gatewatch. The fact they even pushed in that direction is a result of their work before the new model was put in place.

A central cast is a surface detail. I'm not denying it helps, but the underlying goals and methods are what has led to the success.

It seems odd, then, that she'd regress to the person prior to those decades, particularly as the two seem incompatible.

As to the black mana connection, that IS obvious. It just doesn't fit what we know now. Nissa didn't dabble in black mana with the Lorwyn elves. She hated what they did,was horrified by it.

My favorite novel from Magic history is, without question, The Brother's War which is, as far as I am concerned, a classic of the fantasy genre. Oddly, I did not like the rest of the Artifact's Cycle very much, but that may have been because I was very young, and very stupid: I also have a strange affection for the Onslaught novel dating from around that same time.

That being said, no, there is no time in the history of Magic's story I want to return to. The history of Magic's story is one terrible, terrible pattern, repeated over and over again. With very few exceptions, the novels that tried to tie into the current card set were bad and those were allowed to just noodle around Magic's backyard (so to speak) were good. But that storytelling model ultimately didn't work. It also lasted far too long. I don't miss it.