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The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
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Author:  Flyheight [ Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
I don't believe the first 4 have been contested in quite a while:
Stoneforge Mystic
Snapcaster Mage
Dark Confidant
Tarmogoyf

As for completing the cycle, when Young Pyromancer was printed I was quite satisfied with it's performance (personally) and called it the honorary busted red 2-drop card even though it's not rare/mythic.

Then they printed Abbot of Keral Keep. The value on this card is no joke and I am content to believe that the Abbot displaces his underling the Young Pyromancer on this list.

While Magic only has 5 colors, it does also have colorless and multicolor cards. And speaking of busted and colorless: while we have long had Arcbound Ravager, we just got Hangarback Walker.
I don't know if Walker ousts Ravager. Thoughts?
Honorable mention to Steel Overseer for this slot, but I think he gets edged out by both of the previously mentioned cards.
Other submissions are certainly welcome. Except devoid creatures, file those under their appropriate casting cost color(s).

Before we get to multicolor cards though I believe we have a contender for busted blue 2-drop.
Newcomer Jace, Vryn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound has got some serious chops and I wonder if he deposes Snaps?
I'm leaning towards not, just because Snaps gets his bonus as soon as he ETBs and Jace must survive a turn...but I'm far from decided.
Of course if you have the option, just play both, but that's neither here nor there.

Busted 2-drop multicolor cards has never really been a thing as far as I know, but I'm curious what people would rate the best multicolor 2-drop creatures?
Best hybrid 2-drop creatures?
I understand everything is contextual, this is just for funsies. :)
Honestly I don't think most of these multicolor critters can qualify as busted on the same level as the original list, but if I see something that I think qualifies I'll mark it
Here's my personal list

Multicolor:
: Meddling Mage
: Cartel Aristocrat
: Baleful Strix<-This might be busted level I think. Opinions?
: Razorfin Hunter or Nin, the Pain Artist I can't decide. Are either of them busted in this day and age?
: Grenzo, Dungeon Warden or Tymaret, the Murder King I'm only allowing Grenzo b/c he can still function reasonably well when cast for just 2 mana.
: Lotleth Troll<-Busted? There were some good ones for this slot.
: Horned Kavu<-Busted?
: Flamewright
: Saffi Eriksdotter or Voice of Resurgence <-Busted?
: Coiling Oracle Wow there were some other good ones here I didn't realize existed


Hybrid:
: Mistmeadow Witch
: There's nothing that I really like here honestly
: Sygg, River Cutthroat
: Izzet Guildmage<-Busted?
: Rakdos Guildmage
: Golgari Guildmage
: Burning-Tree Emissary
: Boros Guildmage
: Selesnya Guildmage
: Simic Guildmage <-very niche, but the rest kinda suck though


Note: I'm ignoring 3-color combination 2-drops as they only existed in Alara Reborn as a single cycle of mediocre shard colored cards. The wedges don't even have any (and that's ok).
Note 2: Ok so even 2-color Hybrid had fewer options in it than I realized. Oh well, I did it anyway. XD
Author:  Mown [ Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Tidehollow Sculler and Goblin Electromancer if anything. They should ideally all be rares and have a very broad application though.
Author:  Nylon [ Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
I remember a time when River Boa was considered the best 2-drop creature ever :wha:

There's also the banned couple: Goblin Recruiter and Hermit Druid.
Author:  Dr_Demento [ Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Yeah, that "cycle" refers to Modern, so stuff like Baleful Strix and Horned Kavu wouldn't fit. Jace is good, but Snapcaster is better (It works with counterspells, doesn't need to untap). Not much else for me to say, I don't need to feel to extend the cycle past Arcbound Ravager for colorless.
Author:  Fenix [ Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Flyheight wrote:
As for completing the cycle, when Young Pyromancer was printed I was quite satisfied with it's performance (personally) and called it the honorary busted red 2-drop card even though it's not rare/mythic.

Then they printed Abbot of Keral Keep. The value on this card is no joke and I am content to believe that the Abbot displaces his underling the Young Pyromancer on this list.

Are you kidding?

Abbot is a fine card but its not even in the same convesation as Young Pyromancer. Young Pyromancer has seen play as the victory condition in Vintage decks, while Abbot is not good enough for Legacy Burn/RDW, let alone Vintage.
Author:  serenechaos [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Yeah, Abbot is a potential, but not guaranteed, +1 CA and a single attacker. YP goes wide, provides massive CA if he untaps, and the power bonus that Abbot gains from spells, YP gains permanently and gets around blockers and removal.

Also, Hangarback Walker isn't a 2-drop....
Author:  Dr_Demento [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
The thing is Young Pyromancer needs to untap, while Abbot doesn't. In eternal formats, Young Pyro is better, but in Modern and Standard (assuming Young Pyro was legal) I think Abbot holds an edge.
Author:  Mata Hari [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
What's the point of this
Author:  serenechaos [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Why does YP need to untap?? If you play either of them on Turn 2, you cannot gain full value unless you're playing free spells. If you play either of them Turn 3+ or next to free spells, you get +CA and identical power on the board, but Abbot's power goes away EOT and can be chumped or removed. They overlap perfectly, but YP does both jobs better.
Author:  Dr_Demento [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Young Pyro wants you to play cantrips, which aren't really a thing in Standard and have been banned into mediocrity in Modern. Young Abbot wants you to play cheap stuff. I know you can play YP and immediately follow it up with a spell, but getting only one token out of him is not good. Abbot is just a much more consistent performer in Modern and Standard.
Author:  AzureShade [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Spoiler
Author:  Dr_Demento [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Awww, Bob's adorable thinking he belongs with those three.
Author:  iamsam [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Pain Seer should be the 1B card hands down. Best creature card-drawer
Author:  serenechaos [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Young Pyro just wants you to play spells in general; it just so happens that a lot of those happen to be Brainstorms and Ponders in Legacy. He also works with lots of burn, removal, discard, etc. Essentially, anything cheap and non-permanent, much like Abbot (who can flip a creature, but still needs Prowess).

And my point is that neither card gains you value turn 2, and on turn 3+ Abbot MIGHT gain you value and YP will. A 1/1 is better than possibly getting nothing. And multiple 1/1s are better than even gauranteed value off Abbot. YP has permanent prowess that is resistant to chump blocking and spot removal, and nets you more board presence and card advantage. I don't see what Abbot offers over him in most situations.
Author:  Dr_Demento [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
No, Young Pyro really doesn't work without cantrips. You do not see it in decks running less than 8 cantrips, and even 8 is little light. Abbot however, can be thrown in a deck like Jund with no support.
Author:  serenechaos [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
I don't see why it has to be cantrips. Why is getting a 1/1 off Abrupt Decay or Dismember not as good as getting a 1/1 off Serum Visions? Are they better at being 1/1s or something?
Author:  Dr_Demento [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Because you want at least a 1/1 a turn (or you might as well be playing Bitterblossom), and the only way to keep that up is by drawing more than one card a turn. A cantrip is a 1/1 that guarantees you another 1/1. 1/1s just aren't very useful, so you really need them in bulk.
Author:  serenechaos [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
A cantrip doesn't guarantee you more 1/1s, you're still limited by your mana and any non-spells (creatures, lands, etc.) that your cantrip can potentially draw. And you don't need to cantrip to draw extra spells, because if you're hellbent on Turn 3 you have bigger problems than not having enough 1/1s. Stapling the value of a 1/1 onto all your cheap disruption spells is really, really good, you don't have to durdle to make it work. Just do all the things you were going to do anyway.
Author:  Dr_Demento [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
Then why isn't Pyromancer played in more red decks? It doesn't see play in Jeskai or Grixis Control, even though they play plenty of instants or sorceries. It doesn't see play in any Twin variant, even the ones that are less combo oriented. I didn't pull 8 cantrips out of nowhere, I legitimately can not think of a deck that runs Pyromancer and not at least 8 cantrips.
Author:  rstnme [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The busted 2-drop creature cycle...extended edition?
The doctor is right in this one.

Abbot in Jund is OK. I've tested as many as 3 and am playing 0 right now. Given that I normally want it on turn 4, or 3 with a shaky mana keep, but overall I'd rather just play a solid 4-drop like huntmaster or olivia.
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