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Opinion Poll: Discard Rule and Vanilla Land
I prefer the "more than one card" discard rule. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I prefer the "turn-1" discard rule. 55%  55%  [ 6 ]
I prefer a different discard rule. (Please explain.) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I prefer the Vanilla Redux. 18%  18%  [ 2 ]
I prefer Vanilla Land as we played it this season. 27%  27%  [ 3 ]
I prefer Vanilla Land, but with some changes. (Please explain.) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 11
Total voters : 7
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:14 pm 
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really let's just blame abyssal persecutor


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Okay, here we go. Me vs. POSValkir.

Me first, I try to race.
POS lets me hit them down to 2, then blocks on turn 4. I still have 8 life, so I reanimate T4, hit POS again T5, then Edict T6 to win. POS doesn't have a lot of options, since they're forced to block before they have mana for Fling.

POS first, POS doesn't attack
If I try to race, I lose to Fling. But if we trade, I win with Reanimate. My only winning line of play is to use Chainer's Edict on POS, and then hope to flash it back before Ugin kills me.
Option 1: POS just keeps charging their land. I cast Chainer's Edict T4 and hit POS to -4 life on T7. Ugin lands on T9, but can't do much at this point. Removing my demon wins me the game, and my demon will just kill Ugin after two bolts to the face. I Edict again T12 and win.
Option 2: POS casts Fling to trade T4. I reanimate T4, hit POS to -4 life on T8, then Edict that turn to win.
Option 3: POS leaves mana up to Fling in response to Edict. If I cast Edict, Fling kills my demon, then I Reanimate T6 and hit POS to -4 life on T10. Ugin comes down T13, but it's the same situation as Option 1. I kill Ugin, then Edict and win.

POS first, POS attacks
POS attacks T1: I block, Reanimate, and win.
POS attacks T4: I block, Reanimate T4, hit POS to -4 on T8, then cast Edict that turn and win before T9 Ugin.

Okay, I think I get to keep my one 6-0 matchup.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:14 pm 
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...
Ugin lands on T9
...
win before T9 Ugin.


You've got a bit more breathing room than that. Ugin costs 8. Dwarven Hold gets counters on turns 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 before untapping on 10 to cast Ugin.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:20 am 
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Did I come in second place overall? I think I just barely came in second place but my calculations could be off.

Edit: For anyone considering unbanning Black Lotus, you can do what you want but Leyline of Anticipation is a thing and if I get a prize I'm not spending a ban on it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:00 am 
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Well, Leyline + Lotus is two cards already. And you are left with a single, three-mana at most card to cast. It can't be hand disruption, a counter won't win games, so if you want to mess with opponent's plans you're left with Thalia-type effects.

Anyway, the desire for Lotus may depend on whether we're keeping the land Vanilla next season. Are we?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:28 am 
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mark777 wrote:
Did I come in second place overall? I think I just barely came in second place but my calculations could be off.


Yeah, you started the round less than 1 point behind me and you gained a full point on me (6 round points better than my score, divided by 6 matches), so you overtook me. Zlen takes first though - started the round ahead of you and won the round.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:29 pm 
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^ In that case i'm definitely going to unban The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. The other thing will take some more thought.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:25 am 
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I put up an opinion poll regarding the experimental changes this season and how people liked them. Please let your preferences be heard regarding the discard rule and Vanilla Land! For those making banning decisions, assume for now that Vanilla Land (if it stays) will share the Vanilla banlist but with some extra "untouchable" bans. Speaking of banning decisions...

Season 22 Awards
Consolation Prizes
Golgari_Spy (banned Pyrokinesis)
mark777 (banned Exploration)
Pick one nonbasic card to ban from a deck that placed 1st in the same round.

Round Winners
Vanilla: mark777 (submitted 2 Fold)
Vanilla Land: Edacade (submitted No Repeats)
Collector: Zlehtnoba
You Can't Win: Zlehtnoba
You may each submit a new alternate format to be added to next season's poll. (Repeat winners may suggest multiple formats.)

Grand Prizes!
1st place (due Friday, 23:00 PST): Zlehtnoba
2nd place (due Thursday, 23:00 PST): mark777
3rd place (due Wednesday, 23:00 PST): thatmarkguy
Each change awarded allows you to either add a card or remove a card from the vanilla banlist. First place gets three changes, second place gets two, and third place gets one.
Note: Cards that were banned at the beginning of the season cannot be unbanned.

Don't forget to submit before your deadline!

Your average match points for each round are summed together to generate your score.
Rank|Name|Total Score|Round 1|Round 2|Round 3|Round 4
1|Zlehtnoba|14.33|2.33|2.50|5.00|4.50
2|mark777|13.83|5.00|0.00|4.50|4.33
3|thatmarkguy|13.67|3.33|2.50|4.50|3.33
4|Edacade|11.17|1.33|5.00|2.50|2.33
5|CommanderJim|10.17|4.33|4.17|0.00|1.67
6|Golgari_Spy|9.50|0.00|3.17|3.00|3.33
7|POSValkir|9.00|4.00|3.50|1.50|0.00

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:33 am 
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I only voted on the discard preference. Don't really have one as far as the second round goes.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 am 
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I can see we are unanimous on the poll so far. Personally, I would keep Vanilla land for a couple of seasons, to see if the metagame stabilizes. If it becomes "solved", then we can go back to redux, or think up something else.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:16 am 
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all that hard work just to dig myself out of last place paid off

vanilla land was great, and the exploration problem was solved nicely

the trick with the discard rule is that it functionally controls the format's critical turn up to a point, and i didn't really notice that much of a difference between the two rules because the traditional answer of "play stuff before the discard spell comes online" still works (although that's probably because the banned discard spells would change this), land rule encourages more strategies that have resilience to discard which is why i liked it better


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:07 am 
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Imagonnaban Mental Misstep.

I don't think 'Play stuff before the discard spell comes online' was really a factor, because aside from you, nobody played discard because its main lure (early disruption) is no longer available. And I don't think anyone deliberately played speedy or discard-resilient for fear of a T2 discard spell - I think they played expecting discard was a fringe threat at best.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:00 pm 
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I've thought about it harder and i'm going to unban Mishra's Workshop and ban Glacial Chasm. And pray the last person doesn't unban Bridge this season.

My first thoughts were unbanning Channex and Tabernacle but I know that would only be fun for me and not for anyone else.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Anyone who has fun with Channex is evil.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:53 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:55 pm 
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No, evil, not Dr. Evil.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:40 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:38 am 
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i think channex is mostly redundant with tabernacle, because you get around them a similar way (by building in extra mana)

that said, they're not really fun, but trying to optimize fun doesn't really work


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:36 am 
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Can get around tabby with noncreature wincons, too. Manlands dodge both (not by providing additional mana, but by being creature threats that are never cast and aren't creatures at upkeep time.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:19 am 
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Time I did something with my prize :)

IMO, the banned list is getting too long. Unburned as I am with the horros of the first seasons, I'm going to unban these three win conditions:

Frost Titan (no Lotus, no fun; if your deck loses to a turn-7 Titan, you probably deserve it)
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (see above)
Chronomaton (to diversify the meta a bit; I don't think it's overly powerful, but we'll see)

The formats:

Take five: All players get an emblem with "During your first five turns, your life total can't change, you can't get poison counters, and you can't lose the game."
Charge!: All creatures attack each turn if able.

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