On mobile, but the post above by Trouser is pretty on point. As a random request though Trouser, since ive noticed it in other threads, consider spoiler blocking when you quote walls of text or maybe simply quoting sections of the post.

On thr topic of music to blare... the sun finally csme out after several days of rain so today I took the T-Tops off the car and am blaring Cage the Elephant.

Back Against The Wall
In One Ear
Soil To The Sun

All good songs to crank up.

Oh my goodness, look at him go!!!

Edit: BTW Butt I completely understand. Most people can't get past his goofy lyrics to realize that he may have been our greatest modern composer who demanded nothing less than perfection from his band.
The demands on his musicians if anything has served all of us well from the outcropping they provided after leaving Zappa.

Lowell George and Roy Estrada (Little Feat)
Tom Malone, Lou Marini (SNL House Band, The Blues Brothers)
Warren Cuccurullo, Terry and Dale Bozzio (Missing Persons)
Warren Cuccurullo (Duran Duran)
Adrian Belew
Jean-Luc Ponty
Steve Vai

And numerous other musicians that already were established joined him in studio.

Mark Volman, Howard Kaylan (The Turtles, Flo and Eddie)
Eric Clapton, Jack Bruce (Cream)
John Lennon, Yoko
Sting...

The list is too big.

Did I mention that he was one of the greatest guitar players ever to live? (imho)

I'll throw in some more instrumental stuff in the next few day.
Maybe some goofiness also.

You are wrong, Bounty, and popular opinion is not valid in analyzing music. You criticize me for using logical fallacies, yet you have used one of the most glaring ones of all, appeal to popularity. If many people say it, it must be true. This is not the case, especially when the music-listening populace at larg is utterly retarded. Lots of people label Skrillex as "techno"; this is not the case. He is dubstep, and people that mislabel music are uneducated douchebags.

Also, genres can indeed be defined by the fathers of the genre. If I were to craft an utterly unheard of, new type of music ("Genre X"), in which specific musical traits AND IDEOLOGICAL FACTORS play a role in making the genre what it is, it would be utterly incorrect for people to make similar music, with opposing ideology, and say it is "Genre X".

As I have explained numerous times, with a point you never address and always dodge: It is equivalent to Christian music and black metal. Christian black metal, no matter how many times it has been attempted, no matter how many people believe it is valid and possible, simply IS NOT possible. When you add Christian themes to black metal (a genre where ideologies are a defining factor, those being misanthropy, nihilism, and opposition to Christianity), it ceases to be black metal. Done deal.

Metal in general, is supposed to be raw, dark, and not instantly accessible. These are principles the genre was founded on; and I have posted quotes and proof but every single time you have a **** excuse that allows you to ignore it. Actually READ what I am writing; the spirit of what I am writing; rather than simply saying "no you're wrong man" as a copout.

So, is there such an animal as Christian Heavy Metal in the context of your perimeters, Butt?

Yep. Because heavy metal is not inherently anti-Christian. Black metal, on the other hand, is.

This is "grasping at straw" the argument.

We get it, you love metal music and you think that anybody who doesn't love metal like you is an inferior human. Can we move on now and actually talk about music instead of just smashing heads against a brick wall?

I don't think anything of the sort. I respect different tastes, but I don't like it when people parade music of as a genre it is not.

I love post-rock, but it is upfront about what it is.
I love pop-punk, but again, it is upfront about what it is.
I even like some chart-topping radio pop songs... but again: it is upfront about what it is.

I don't know how this part about genres other than metal pertains to this thread since this is the butt's metal blog.

After over a week of legitimate discussion things have now been dragged down to a childish flame war in a matter of minutes. Great.

Currently listening to :

I took the bait, that's all there is to it.

Classic stuff with Boston there Bounty. I played the crap out of that album on my plastic briefcase (sort of) record player I had when I was a kid.

Butt, I'm glad you feel that way about Christian Heavy Metal. If you said no we would have started our own debate.
When I was younger my parents went and got all saved. It never took for me really, other than the guilt that religion brings. That was the only thing that lasted beside the music and the music is all that remains of that part of my life.
I've been a musician for a long time and back in the late 70's / early 80's I was only allowed to listen to secular music every other day.
Not so great for a budding guitarist, eh? Not necessarily so as that forced me to seek out Christian music that tickled my taste buds and guess what?
I found some really good music out there. Petra, Barnabas, and others and my favorite Christian Hard Rock / Heavy Metal Band The Resurrection (or Rez in their later days) Band.
Even got a chance to jam with them in studio on one of their releases as the youth leader of my church had started a Christian Rock band that I participated in and he happened to know Glen and Wendy Kieser from the time he lived in Chicago.
These guys were very serious about their savior and their art. They all lived together in a commune, wrote and performed music and witnessed about Jesus and such.
Great band. No posing involved. These guys could really smack it out and still have a God message. I respect them very much for never selling out to mainstream (like Amy Grant did back then) and giving up what they believed.

Here is a very rare (not so much in these Youtube days) of on of their songs entitled The Chair.
Written from the point of view of a handicap person and performed in a church I can't remember the name of.
Unfortunately this was the last song before the video cassette ran out so I think the end of the song is cut off.
Yah! Doubleneck SG action!!!
Enjoy.

"You criticize me for using logical fallacies, yet you have used one of the most glaring ones of all, appeal to popularity. If many people say it, it must be true. This is not the case, especially when the music-listening populace at larg is utterly retarded. Lots of people label Skrillex as "techno"; this is not the case. He is dubstep, and people that mislabel music are uneducated douchebags."

Whether or not you think it's a fallacy depends upon whether you view a label as a descriptive tool, or an excuse to be an elitist arse. If you think that a label is something that allows you to exclude people from your metallers' club because 'What they listen to isn't REAL metal, myeh myeh myehhhh!', or an excuse to call people 'uneducated douchbags' because 'they think that Skrillex is techno, when it's really dubstep, myeh myeh myehhhh!', then I suppose you would think it's a fallacy. If you think a label is a device by which a level of understanding may be attained of what a song or band sound like by somebody who hasn't listened to it/them, then I'm afraid that the popular perception of what the label means is what defines it - this is the only way that the label can be of use.

Tell me, have you ever considered J.S. Bach to have been a composer of classical music? I ask because the classical label originated as a description of a style of western art music produced by composers such as Mozart and Haydn, that was prevalent in the eighteenth century. The popular meaning of the label has changed since then, however, and it now covers all western art music down through the ages, including styles that are completely opposite to many aspects of the music that it was originally intended to identify. If I wanted to be an elitist arse, I could go around stamping my little feet, and complaining that Bach isn't classical, it's baroque, but that would be pretty pointless and pathetic behaviour. Is it wrong to describe the total serialism of Boulez as classical music? It opposes everything that the label originally defined, but if I describe it as classical then it increases people's understanding of what the music is like, and that's the whole point of a label.

You keep going on about Christian black metal. How about this: Christianity means something different to everyone - it is subjective. Here's what I believe to be a plausible scenario: a band with a whacked, fundamentalist Christian ideology and a black metal compositional style write a song about cleansing the world of homosexuality via the mass slaughter of gay people. They, and their fundamentalist Christian fans consider this to be Christian metal. A bunch of other, not so whacked, Christians hear the song and say "This is not what Christianity is about. Christianity is about loving thy neighbour, and murder is a sin. This song is completely opposed to Christian values. I think the themes in this song are evil, therefore Satanic, therefore I legitimately consider it to be black metal." Even the Christian Church comes out and says likewise. Is the song a Christian metal song, or a black metal song? Does the fact that the band consider it Christian metal make it so? Does the fact that the Church considers it Satanic, and therefore a black metal song make it so? Or is it both Christian metal and black metal because some people label it one thing, whilst some label it the other?

"I have posted quotes and proof but every single time you have a bull**** excuse that allows you to ignore it.... Actually READ what I am writing; the spirit of what I am writing; rather than simply saying "no you're wrong man" as a copout."

I assure you that I have read everything you have written. Frankly I recall maybe one quote, and absolutely nothing that can be considered to be proof. What you are facing here is not **** excuses, but legitimate arguments. As for saying "no, you're wrong, man", nobody has done that here except for you. I refer you to the actual first thing you wrote in the very post in which you made that accusation.

I recall two quotes. One from Geezer Butler that was never sourced, and one snippet from the press release in 1970.

You raise an interesting point about Christian black metal, yesterday I had considered posing a question like: "If a extremist Muslim started a metal band and played black metal that bashed Christians but had heavy promuslim overtones, would that be black metal". But when you start wandering down that path you start wondering what determines a genre of music; is it the instruments, the speed and tempo, the chords and riffs, or does the content of the lyrics hold sway too? For that matter, can anyone give an example of a type of music that clearly states that its lyrics must be about X or against Y? Nothing is coming to mind for me...but I also just woke up.


Also, off topic...but trousers I meant something like this. (I've spoiler it due to length)
Again, not telling you how to post, just trying to make things easier to read rather than quoting the whole text wall. Makes it a pain to figure out whats going on when reading from mobile and you have to scroll past a huge post only to have to scroll past the same post quoted in the very next post. Thanks for the effort though!

A) I am an elitist arse. Deal with it.
B) Bach is baroque, and no amount of ad hominems and "you're just being an elitist, wahhh" are gonna change that. See A.
C) Christian black metal cannot exist no matter what definition of Christianity you use. Black metal is inherently against any religion that is linked or tied to Christianity, or tied to the Christian eradication of the Pagan culture in early Scandinavia. Whether your Christianity is "kill the gays, they don't belong", or not, black metallers would rather commit sodomy in spite, than allow Christianity to permeate their musical message. BLACK METAL AND CHRISTIANITY CANNOT MIX, AS THE TWO ARE INHERENTLY AND DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED. WHEN YOU ADD CHRISTIANITY, ANY FORM, TO BLACK METAL, IT CEASES TO BE BLACK METAL. This is why church burnings were so popular in Norway when the second wave of black metal was beginning, in 91-92.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid= ... 530AAfO1WG

A) Lets keep the discussion mature and not stoop to flames and insults no matter how passionate you are regarding the subject.
2) Non mobile wiki link for black metal : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal
&) Lets check out that wiki definition of Black metal:

Emphasis mine.

Okay so the first line is pretty cut and dry it breaks down what musical qualities are common among the sub genre. And of course it says 'common traits' not 'black metal must have' becuase like all sub genres not all songs will obviously have every element these are just similarities.

The second highlighted line though is at the heart of the current argument regarding the Christian black metal thing thing. "Many artists express extreme anti-Christian and misanthropic views". Hmmmm "Many artists" ... nothing at all about "All artists must..." or "All lyrics must..." but just "Many artists".

I'll not be condescending and go grad the definition of many, I'm sure we are all aware that it means 'a lot' and not 'all of'. But its just interesting to note that no where does it say "All black metal bands must do X" nor does it even go so far as saying "a majority".


Many artists.


Edit : Again, props for beginning to link to pages and examples to support your views.

Today has been a day full of yardwork and cleaning out and washing the car. Have the garage surround sound on blast and rocking out, everyone link music to go along with chores and such.

Currently Playing

It says "many artists", yes, in that the remaining artists, focus on Paganism, suicide, misanthropy, hedonism, nihilism, etc, other concepts which are also inherently non-Christian.

Opposition to Christianity is an ideology the genre was founded upon; from Venom in the first wave in the late 80s, to Mayhem in the second wave in the early 90s, to Deathspell Omega mocking Christianity even today. You simply CANNOT have Christian black metal, when part of what makes black metal whay it is, IS anti-Christianity. It is an oxymoron.