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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:57 pm 
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I've put one in my sig as a test. Maybe its because it clashes with the site color, but even I find it quite obtrusive in threads where I'm active.

I think I'd prefer for images to have to be spoilered. I have signatures on, and dont find the text ones to clutter things up too bad though.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:11 am 
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Yeah, images in sigs can be quite distracting from the thread. That's why mine is spoilered itself.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:48 am 
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As a rule of thumb, I don't hate images in sigs. (I am, in general, a minimalist when it comes to sigs, though; shorter is better.)

I think that black and white banner, for example, is fine for a sig image. I think the ubiquitous "I am Color <whatev>" banner that floats around most message boards is OK. And so on. I do dislike when somebody has four or five banners stacked; again, I'm a minimalist.

So maybe we can steal borrow heavily from the sig rules over on GitP. Here's everything they have:

Quote:
Avatar & Signature Rules
The total width of images in your signature may not exceed 470 pixels. This may be comprised of one or more images.

The total height of images in your signature may not exceed 120 pixels. This may be comprised of one or more images.

Any images in a spoiler may not exceed 300 pixels high by 470 pixels wide.

Total height of your signature may not exceed 12 lines or equivalent. A smaller font may allow additional lines and a larger font will count against multiple lines. A 120 pixel high image is equivalent to 8 lines, a spoiler with no blank lines around it is equivalent to 2 lines. Please be aware of text wrapping as long lines will count as multiple lines at our discretion.

The maximum size for any avatar is 50kb.

The maximum total size for your avatar and every image in your signature, including those in spoilers cannot exceed 300kb.

Avatars and signature images must be static (ie. not animated). Animated avatars or signature images will be subject to immediate removal.

Animated images are still allowed as post content (preferably in a spoiler) but not in your signature or as an avatar as they detract from the rest of the forums when they are attached to every post.

Also, please note that if a change is made to your signature or avatar either directly by a moderator or by way of a moderator request, changing it back to something that does not comply with these rules would lead to an infraction. This falls under the existing rules regarding changing moderator made edits or ignoring/disregarding a moderator.

Object|Rule
Maximum Total Width of Images|470px
Maximum Total Height of Images|120px
Maximum Height of Images in Spoiler|300px
Maximum Total Height of Signature|12 lines or equivalent (ie. 4 lines + 120px high image)
Maximum Avatar Size|50kb
Maximum Total Image Size (Avatar and Sig)|300kb
Animated Signatures|Not allowed
Animated Avatars|Not Allowed


Copyrighted Material and OotS Images
Using copyrighted artwork as an avatar is technically illegal unless you have the permission of the copyright holder. Even if the art is modified in some way, the original copyright still stands and you can't use it as an avatar. Rich Burlew has specifically requested that people DO NOT use his OOTS art as avatar image, other than those he has specifically provided as the default message board avatars. Also, please do not take, alter, or use the provided avatar images, comic images, or other pieces of Rich's art without express consent. If you want an OOTS-style avatar, there are many burgeoning avatar artists hanging around the Arts and Crafts forum who might make one for you.

Any avatar image that is found to be used without the permission of the copyright holder will be removed. If the creator of an avatar personally approaches the GITP staff and claims that their creation is being used without permission by another poster--as might be the case if they requested credit for the avatar and then were denied such--the Moderators will remove the avatar immediately. The first instance of this will incur a Warning, but should the member reinstate his or her violating avatar or create another avatar that also violates the rules, he or she will be issued an Infraction.


So that's obviously a lot, and I don't think we need all that. But they have some stuff we can work from, I think, towards building decent rules that allow for style, creativity, etc in a signature while still preventing things from getting obnoxious. (Also, please no comments on their "Using copyrighted artwork as an avatar is technically illegal" statement. I know such a statement can be contentious, so I don't want to dredge it up here since it'll be off-topic, and won't be something we're going to worry about anyway.)

So, cherry picking their rules, I like these bits for our site:

Quote:
The total width of images in your signature may not exceed 470 pixels. This may be comprised of one or more images.

The total height of images in your signature may not exceed 120 pixels. This may be comprised of one or more images.


Anything beyond those dimensions, individually or as a group, requires a spoiler. I'm inclined to say no specific limit on the size within the spoiler, but will note that there is a general rule in place already about "site disruption" that hideous sigs could fall under.

While I personally dislike animated images as avatars and most animated images in sigs, I don't know if we need a rule against it or not. I'm willing to say not for now and re-address the point in the future if it becomes a huge problem.

Do those work for image-size requirements? Do we want to consider some specific limit on visible size of signatures (so anything longer than X lines requires a spoiler)?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:51 am 
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animated avatars should be allowed

just look at van


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:54 am 
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And because I like to-do lists, I think this is what remains before we can move this to a live document:

  1. Decide these sig image rules
  2. Add in the "don't backseat mod" rule
  3. Decide on either adding definitions in a glossary or axing the section
  4. More formatting (table of contents, etc)
  5. Potential expansion in "Section Five" to provide more information about mod actions. We're not expecting to declare how many warnings result in a ban, when warnings will expire, etc; but I do think we can explain things like nudging, soft warning, and hard warning a bit here. the questions would be whether it's helpful and whether it's appropriate or a CoC document (though it could slide into the "appendix" or "glossary" section, too).

Are there any other open items people think we still need to work on? Are they any rules that look vague, or that you're afraid a mod could abuse because it has too much wiggle room? Are there any potential issues that aren't covered (such as the backseat modding one) that we should consider addressing explicitly?

There has been great feedback so far here. Thanks to everybody for taking time to comment and offer suggestions!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:55 am 
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Ko wrote:
animated avatars should be allowed

just look at van


I didn't propose disallowing them; I just said I don't like them. The only rules I'm suggesting to grab from GitP are the size limits on sig images.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:00 am 
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GobO_Fire wrote:
[*]Decide on either adding definitions in a glossary or axing the section


IMO, I would lean towards cutting that section. I think having it there would just allow people to nitpick with the language, and do things that might not be spelled out against the CoC, but are against the spirit of it.

GobO_Fire wrote:
Potential expansion in "Section Five" to provide more information about mod actions. We're not expecting to declare how many warnings result in a ban, when warnings will expire, etc; but I do think we can explain things like nudging, soft warning, and hard warning a bit here. the questions would be whether it's helpful and whether it's appropriate or a CoC document (though it could slide into the "appendix" or "glossary" section, too).


Now this, I believe, would be a good appendix to have, at a general level.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:01 pm 
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My Sig is non compromising.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:35 pm 
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Damn, and here I was about to write a treatise on copyright law again. ;) You headed me off at the pass, Fire!

I doubt we're going to need anything moved or deleted from the Archivist's native boards anytime soon. The major bone of contention is whether or not fanfiction in general can be posted at all in AF&S, and I frankly don't see that debate being resolved anytime soon, so I think Luna and I will be hesitant to move anything around between the two. Otherwise, there shouldn't be a problem moving a thread from the main M:EM to the Archive, right?

Any actual modding I'm happy to leave to Ravenclaw, because frankly the idea that I will ever have time to police thread content is ludicrously unlikely. I don't want to speak for Luna but I'm like 99% sure he feels the same way, since he's the one who's been actually slowly, painfully transferring information from the old archives to their new home.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Otherwise, there shouldn't be a problem moving a thread from the main M:EM to the Archive, right?


Nope, none at all. That's why it was given that ability, so you could shuffle finished works off to the archive without having to beg a mod for help every time.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:32 pm 
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To address the list:

  1. Decide these sig image rules
  2. To be clear: the "don't backseat mod" rule would be if someone was already breaking the CoC, right? As in, if you said "you're getting kind of close to X, don't push it" [where X=something against the CoC], would you get a warning/mark against you?
  3. I agree with NeoSilk: dropping the definitions would probably be the wiser choice, and I'm actually of the camp (I don't remember who suggested it originally) that you should just say "the definitions of 'flaming' &c. is at the discretion of the moderation staff."
  4. [cannot comment](just typing so that the letters match up)
  5. I wouldn't think it's really necessary to outline the system of warning you guys use, as it is my understanding that it can change depending on just how bad the content is that triggered the warnings/bans to begin with.

I also generally dislike animated avatars, but that's mainly from a history of lurking Pokemon forums where everyone is immature and chooses the most annoying image they can find. I have not seen enough animated signature images to say I dislike them, and on occasion I've been surprised by an image blinking at me when I thought it was static.

I doubt we're going to need anything moved or deleted from the Archivist's native boards anytime soon. The major bone of contention is whether or not fanfiction in general can be posted at all in AF&S, and I frankly don't see that debate being resolved anytime soon, so I think Luna and I will be hesitant to move anything around between the two. Otherwise, there shouldn't be a problem moving a thread from the main M:EM to the Archive, right?

Any actual modding I'm happy to leave to Ravenclaw, because frankly the idea that I will ever have time to police thread content is ludicrously unlikely. I don't want to speak for Luna but I'm like 99% sure he feels the same way, since he's the one who's been actually slowly, painfully transferring information from the old archives to their new home.


Well, to be honest, I probably could (for a short while) have time to police the AF&S and M:EM forums, but as I explained... somewhere (I think I posted it in an M:EM thread): I'm finding less attachment to Magic at the moment and find myself actually contributing words to the MLP fandom. That's at least reason no.1 -- but I never really read all that many threads even when I was invested. What was my point? I'm falling asleep here. *re-reads Keeper's post*

Oh, right. I technically do have a decent amount of free time, but I generally spend it unwinding on ponies, youtubes, musics, monster hunter, game reviews, terraria, list too long, thinking up ideas to talk about here or on a theoretical future blog, etc. Every so often, I think "Oh right, I'm supposed to be uploading the Archives. Welp, I guess I should do that, then :|"

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:17 am 
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You're doing better than me. I just think "Oh god I should probably help Luna with the archive."

Then I stare at the mounting pile of essays I haven't read yet and slowly die inside :I

And then usually to deal with the mounting anxiety and panic attacks I browse Tumblr for three hours. -_-


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:26 pm 
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So, some quick setting changes that were the result of discussions here.

We've gone ahead and assigned mods to their forums in the software; Welder was kind enough to alter the main page to remove the ugly moderator list from there. So now, whenever you're viewing a forum page, you should see a list of moderator names at the top.

Neo's find ("The Team" link at the bottom of the main page) still functions, which provides another source of the information.

Finally, we'll plan on leaving the mod list in the CoC itself as yet another source of getting the information.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:55 am 
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how do we feel about image leeching? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline_linking

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:01 am 
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Hotlinking can be bad, obviously. I recommend using an image storage site if you're going to do it. However, I'm not aware of any legal issues with doing it in most cases, so I'm not sure if we need a specific rule for it. If anyone has any feedback on that, I'm open to hearing it, of course.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:10 am 
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GobO_Admin wrote:
Hotlinking can be bad, obviously. I recommend using an image storage site if you're going to do it. However, I'm not aware of any legal issues with doing it in most cases, so I'm not sure if we need a specific rule for it. If anyone has any feedback on that, I'm open to hearing it, of course.


BAsed on what I read in the link, I think it's more of a courtesy thing,since your putting more on the image host's sever that your linking...I know MTGS has a rule against it for a number of reasons, I'm jsut wondering if we're going to do the same or not.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:18 am 
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Yeah, I understand how it works, I just wasn't sure if there was any time it might be of questionable legality.

I save and upload images because if the hotlinked image ever comes down, your image breaks, but I'm not going to force anyone to do it if they don't care to unless there is a compelling reason to do so.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:19 pm 
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I don't know of any legal issues around that topic (but I'm not a lawyer, so...). As Stormy said, it's a courtesy thing. One reason for folks to do it is what Admin said - if the image is ever taken down, you still have it.

Another reason to do it: If the image hoster ever changes the image, the person who hotlinked it here is still responsible for the content. For example, I have seen image hosters very intentionally change commonly linked images into porn. So if you originally posted a cute kitten picture and it suddenly turns into a porn pic, you're still going to get a warning from the mod staff for posting porn. (Now, it's possible that the mod would only give a soft warn in those circumstances, but it's not a guarantee.)

But... I'd be disinclined to make it a requirement. First of all, it's damn near impossible to manage. If the rule is in place, I have to go and check the source of every image and determine if that source is the "private" image hosting site for the user, or if it's some other website. That's a huge pain in the ass for little to no gain. The second reason is I don't want to "legislate" manners. Yes, it's good web manners to not hotlink an image; it's also good manners to say "thank you" when somebody answers a question you asked. I'm sure not going to make the latter a site rule, so I'm disinclined to make the former a site rule as well.

Still, it's a good question. And maybe there's room for a second post after the CoC with a "best practices / suggestions" type stuff, where this could go. But I don't think it's something we need a rule against.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:37 pm 
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There are no legal issues with hotlinking as far as I know. After all, else stuff like Photobucket would not be able to exist. You're still loading a pic from another site after all.

Several sites use means to disallow it anyway (who hasn't ever seen a 4chan.org pic from someone who thought hotlinking from 4chan was a good idea).
It is a courtesy thing indeed and imo hard to moderate.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:59 pm 
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hot links should come with links to the site they originate from

hard coding a link to auto link images to their site of origin can reference the root site

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